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Anne Boleyn & John Fisher-please make me feel better about Anne!
November 23, 2010
3:17 pm
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Suzanne
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November 23, 2010
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Hello all,

I just joined this forum. I have been researching Tudor history roughly 20 years, long before the dreadful “Tudors” series reared its ugly, inaccurate head on Showtime. My interest comes and goes, sometimes I get into other things but I inevitably come back to the Tudors, specifically Henry VIII & his 6 wives. Over the years I've gone back & forth regarding my opinion on Anne Boleyn and I thought I had come to a happy medium: that she was an intelligent, outspoken woman, probably more controlled by her family than we realize, who was innocent of her charges and was brutally murdered by her husband. I still pretty much believe that except recently I was skimming Alison Weir and reread the awful story of John Fisher and his attempted assasination by poison while at dinner. I don't have the book with me now but I know some people died at that dinner and some were very sick, including Fisher. Anne then wrote Fisher something to the effect that he could expect another such dinner if he didn't obey (something to do with the oath I am sure, sorry I don't have the book right now).

I am really having trouble getting past this. I can even forgive Anne's treatment of Katherine of Aragon and Mary due to her desperation to survive in her new role and to protect her daughter later on. Plus allegedly she asked for Mary's forgiveness while in the Tower. But Fisher is another case entirely. This is clearly attempted murder on her part. Can someone enlighten me or help me out here?

Suzanne

November 23, 2010
4:12 pm
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Boleynfan
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Hi Suzanne,

First of all, the sources we have are not ideal; don't let one alleged story ruin your opinion of Anne. It could have been Anne–and it could easily have been Henry's faction. As his wife, she could have sent Fisher this letter after knowing he had someone do it; or (in my opinion, this is what happened; it's my belief) someone unknown poisoned Fisher and his household and, when Anne found out, she used this as a threat though she did not actually commit the crime. I also think, candidly, that Anne would have been more subtle. Is there the chance she did attempt to poison Fisher? Well of course. But ask yourself–if this is what you really believe, because it's not what I believe–whether or not, in the same position, the Katherine/Mary group would not have done the same thing. That being said, I don't excuse the possibility Anne tried to poison Fisher, I just don't think it's something characteristic of her.

"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"

November 23, 2010
5:12 pm
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Bella44
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I'm pretty sure (99% sure, after all there is room for doubt!) Anne had nothing at all to do with the Fisher episode.  She may have brought it up to use against him later in a moment of unthinking frustration, her temper getting the best of her, but I really think in this case it was a case of her enemies trying to use the incident against her.  If people seriously believed that I'm sure Cromwell would've used that particular incident when he was busy drawing up the charges against her.

November 24, 2010
11:42 am
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Sharon
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I agree.  Had Anne been involved in the poisoning or those men, you can be sure Henry would have made Cromwell charge her with murder.

November 25, 2010
6:12 am
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Boleynfan
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Again, I agree. Many people disbelieved the charges against Anne, so if Cromwell and Henry thought they had good enough evidence for Anne leading Fisher's attempted murder, I'm sure they would have brought that up.

"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"

November 26, 2010
7:58 am
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Boleynfan
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Wreckmasterjay, when it comes down to it, while we obviously can't know Anne's inner thoughts and feelings, I too believe Anne was too nice for that! Also, you're completely right about the “milking it” point: if Henry or Cromwell thought Anne had tried to poison KoA, Mary, or Fisher, she would have had attempted murder charges brought against her.

"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"

November 26, 2010
8:02 am
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Anne
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What makes people think that Anne was behind this and not Henry?I mean,Henry was more insulted than her,since he was king and was,in his opinion,ignored and humiliated by their refusal.Anne had no problem whatsoever since her desire was to marry Henry and as long as Henry was desperate to have her,she knew he would go at every length to be obeyed.I can't say with  certainty about Anne's morals and her character,since I never had the chance to meet herLaugh but from history I know she was smart and cunning…That means that Anne was too smart to participate in such an obvious murder scheme and on top of that sending a note signing her part.It would ruin her chances of not only becoming Queen but would send her to prison…It was just another effort back then to showcase that the”Boleyn Concubine”was ruthless,ambitious and the only one to blame,rather than saying that their King was not responsible enough to keep his marriage(as all kings did) with dignity and responsibility

November 26, 2010
6:13 pm
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Melissa
New York City
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I made my peace with this a long time ago.  Regardless of whether Anne herself had a hand in the incident or not, it was clearly factionally motivated (though I did read somewhere that the man executed for the poisoning claimed it had been meant as a joke).   Whether Anne personally ordered the poisoning, or Henry, or Thomas Boleyn as shown on The Tudors, or someone else entirely, it was clearly meant to scare Fisher into taking the oath or to get him out of the way so he wouldn't vote the wrong way.  His death would have been beneficial to Anne's position.  People would therefore always associate the incident with Anne because she was the figurehead of the Boleyn faction.  She was The Boleyn as the Irish would say.  Personally, I don't think she knew ahead of time what was going to happen to Fisher.  But she threatened him after the incident so clearly she wasn't above threatening murder.

Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.

November 27, 2010
7:09 am
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Boleynfan
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I too made my peace with it, Melissa, and I agree completely with both Anne and Melissa. I also–other than the fact that I feel like Anne would not have stooped so low–believe that she was much too politically savvy and wily to so obviously attempt murder. She would have done it more subtly, I think. Threatening Fisher? Well, I think that's plausible and makes sense, because she knew she could use the attempted poisoning to her advantage, even if she did not do it.

"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"

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