I've often wondered myself about the true nature of Mary's dislike toward Anne. In Maria Perry's book Sisters to the King, she makes several mentions of Mary's emnity for Anne.

Anne was Mary's maids of honours in France. Perhaps Mary felt that one of her former servants, moving up the social ranks and marrying the King, was above reproach. I guess Mary forgot her own matrimonal issues. Charles Brandon moved his way up the social ladder by climbing into bed with the King's sister, although I doubt anyone would remind Mary of that.

Perry makes mention on page 265 that, until Anne begot an heir, Mary's son, the Earl of Lincon, was in line for succession. She had a lot at stake. Her son could be, given certain circumstances, King. Anne could ruin all that with a son, although I do not think Henry would have made Mary's son king unless he had no other option.

Perry also notes on page 267 that Mary, in East Anglia, was very much the “The French Queen.” It was a reminder that she was once equal to KOA, and Anne was not her equal in any way. Neither would she place herself in situations where she needed to acknowledge Anne as her superior. Perry equates this with Mary's constant need to feign illness and/or remove herself from court.

Mary and KOA were close. She did know her since she was a child. They were both deeply Catholic. Mary was also Henry's favourite sister, so seeing him bestow favour on someone like Anne must have angered her. At one time, Mary could do no wrong in Henry's eyes, now this affection (gifts, favours, etc.) was being placed elsewhere, and to a woman Mary viewed as reaching too high.

From reading Perry, Margaret came across as a different personality type: more carefree than Mary. Mind, Margaret was living in Scotland and did not experience the whole Henry/Anne affair close up. But her own love life was closer to that of Henry's: she loved the idea of love, even if many of her escapades did not last. I felt she was the more likable of the sisters, and someone who would empathise with Anne. 

I recommend Perry's book. I learned a lot about Mary and Margaret, and felt I understood their place in Henry's life better. Perry's book is well-researched and documented, but highly readable.

Sharon,

I can only imagine Mary's fury over Anne being given precedence over her and the Duchess of Norfolk. She must have been livid. So, I can see why she removed herself from court, especially given that Henry was not going to give Anne up. I guess living in the country was her way of avoiding a confrontation with Anne and upsetting her brother. Although, it is known the Brandon was open with Henry about his concerns regarding the Lady Anne.

I find it interesting that Mary felt she was entitled to marry for love, and did so behind her brother's back. Yet, she could not bestow the same respect on him. I guess she hated Anne so much, so she could not. I wonder if it was another woman, who was more in line with Mary's concept of a proper future Queen, if she would have behaved differently?

Another add on: it seemed people were willing to accept the worst of Anne, even though there was no evidence to support theories of her loose sexual morals. Yet, Brandon had an acknowledge checkered marital past, with questionable judgement and common sense. I guess what's good for the goose was not good for the gander.

Maybe they saw their parent's love and wanted that? I mean wasn't it Henry VII's choice to marry Elizabeth?

Maybe Henry, Margaret, & Mary wanted that same thing? But at first they did their roles as children of the King & Queen and married who they were supposed to and then decided that since they did that already, maybe it was time to marry for love and not duty.

I thought Henry (VII) chose to marry Elizabeth of York… Sorry i must of been thinking of someone else . Um but i like the theory that Henry, Mary, & Margaret thought that maybe they would fall in love with the arranged spouses, why would they think anything else when they had their parents marriage as an example? Henry (VIII) was described as a 'hopeless romantic', maybe he and his sisters thought love was possible in every circumstance.

Oh! and about the KOA and Henry thing, where she never stopped loving him even when he stopped loving her…It seems Henry did alot of that with his wives. With Katherine, then Anne, Not Jane – she died before he had the chance to stop loving her, He never gave Anna Of Cleves the time of day except for when he saw her portrait, I'm not sure if Katheryn Howard ever really loved Henry but still, and with Catherine Parr i think she was just like a friend to him or something.

DuchessofBrittany said:

Sharon,

I find it interesting that Mary felt she was entitled to marry for love, and did so behind her brother’s back. Yet, she could not bestow the same respect on him. I guess she hated Anne so much, so she could not. I wonder if it was another woman, who was more in line with Mary’s concept of a proper future Queen, if she would have behaved differently?

 

Duchess, 

A good point.  Mary always felt that she was entitled to marry a man of her choosing. But Mary married the man she loved after her husband died. That's the difference between Henry's situation and her own. Katherine was still very much alive. I'm sure she wanted her brother to be happily married; and I believe she thought Henry and Katherine had a good marriage.  Mary had known these two as a couple since her childhood.  She may not have thought anything of Henry taking a mistress; but his setting aside of Katherine may have felt completely wrong to Mary.  I'm sure she thought of Katherine as a permanent member of her family.  I think Mary dismissed the idea of Henry wanting to marry someone else.  Mary's strong dislike of Anne may have been because Henry flaunted her in front of the court.  Henry gave her preference over the nobilty.  He showered her with jewels while Katherine was banished from court as if she had never existed. Mary's decision to leave court was a wise one. It could have gotten really ugly with Henry. Rather than lose her brother's affection, she removed herself from the fray.

A word about Margaret.  When she wanted her divorce from Douglas, Henry was enraged.  He made her go back to him.  This was during the time he was trying to divorce Katherine.  So yes, you are correct.  What was good for the goose was not good for any of the ganders. 

 

Mya-Elise. said:

I thought Henry (VII) chose to marry Elizabeth of York… Sorry i must of been thinking of someone else . Um but i like the theory that Henry, Mary, & Margaret thought that maybe they would fall in love with the arranged spouses, why would they think anything else when they had their parents marriage as an example? Henry (VIII) was described as a ‘hopeless romantic’, maybe he and his sisters thought love was possible in every circumstance.

 

Mya-Elise,

Henry and his sisters may very well have believed that love was possible in every circumstance.  They had the right to believe they could fall in love with their arranged spouses. There were many arranged royal marriages where there was affection between king and queen. 

 What I'm trying to grasp here is their belief that they could marry their heart's desire, with no gain for England.  For previous royal families, marriage was used as a bargaining chip.   With few exceptions,  the kings of England and their siblings, married for the enhancement of their country.  The Tudor siblings wanted to be in love and marry for their own benefit, not necessarily for the benefit of England.

 There is nothing wrong with their wish to be in love with their spouses, I just wonder why the three of them believed so strongly that they should only marry the people they fell in love with.  Whether it was good for England or not, didn't seem part of the equation. 

 

DuchessofBrittany said:

 I wonder if KOA was dead, would marry be more accepting of Anne, or would these two women still dislike one another?

 

Duchess,

That is a very good question. I'm not sure if Mary would ever have accepted Anne as queen even if Katherine had died.

  Margaret lived in Scotland and was not involved in the day to day happenings of the English court.  She knew that her brother was in love with Anne. She wanted to be happy in her own marriage and that's what she wanted for Henry.  She was happy that her brother was in love.  (all this as she was moving on to husband #3.) Such was a romantic.

Anne had served Mary in France.  Mary may have thought Anne was not good enough for her brother.  It seems to me that Mary was like her brother.  She had life her way, ala Brandon, but I'm not sure if she would wish the same for Anne and Henry.  More like, do as I say, not as I do.

 

Impish_Impulse said:

 Jane Seymour had served both KOA and AB. I’ve read conflicting information about whether she’d served Mary in France, but I don’t believe she did. Mary died before the rise of Jane, but I question whether Mary would have rejected Jane as a suitable Queen based on her previous status as a ‘servant’. Being a lady-in-waiting was actually an honor restricted to the nobility. While admittedly not the usual pool from which prospective brides for the royals were drawn, it's not like Henry was marrying a chambermaid or milkmaid.

ETA: I realize that’s not a direct response. I guess I’m saying I don’t think Mary would have objected to Jane, so her scorning of Anne for having been a lady-in-waiting is either inaccurate or hypocritical. And having said that, now I’m wondering if she would have been offended by Jane accepting Henry courting her while Katharine was still alive, or if she would have written off the restoration of Katharine as no longer possible, and Jane, with her papist sympathies would have been acceptable as ‘anyone other than Anne’. Which might be a whole ‘nother topic.

 

Impish,

 Yeah, I was conflicted over this question!

 Didn't Henry give Anne the title of Marquess of Pembroke to raise her status? Henry was honoring Anne with a title of her own; but he was also trying to raise her status in the eyes of his court and the world. That is what I meant when I said Anne was not an equal. I never meant to imply that she had the status of a milkmaid or chambermaid. Didn't mean to come off like that at all. I agree it was a great honor to be a lady-in-waiting. 

There were many at court who thought Anne was not good enough for Henry.  On general principal Mary might not have been any different.  Katherine was loved and admired by the court.  She was a princess in her own right.  Born of two great leaders of Spain. Big shoes to fill. 

Having said all that, Mary could have seen Henry's grief over Katherine's death, and been happy that he had found love with Anne.  That would have been nice.    See, conflicted!

I'll think about the whole Jane/Katherine thing tomorrow.

 

 

 

Impish,

I should have explained myself better the first time.