I think Anne’s view on this would probably have been. “Been there, done that and wore the t shirt!!!”

I think Anne would have had little patience with the Katherine we all know. Anne may have been forward thinking but she still held dear the old fashioned family responsibilities of the times. Katherine was flighty and giddy at an age (for the times) when she should have been more focused and serious. Anne had been maturing from an early age, Katherine hadn’t gotten around to it yet. I do not think they would have much in common at all. If Anne had survived and was Queen when Katherine turned up at court, as she would have, she may well have taken her under her wing and taught her by example if nothing else how to behave as a lady, a Howard and a woman. Whether she would have been successful though is another matter. Katherine was definitely a ‘me-me’ type I’d say and superficial to say the least.

Aw you guys are mean! Katheryn Howard didn’t know what she was getting into-NO ONE would be that thick! I like what Maggyann said about Anne taking Katheryn under her wing. Have you guys ever read Jean Plaidy’s Murder Most Royal? It’s one of the better Tudor fictions out there as it uses real quotes and scenarios from history, and in my opinion really nails Anne and Katheryn’s relationship. Katheryn grows up idolizing Anne as her glamorous older cousin and doesn’t really learn from her example because she’s going through her own thing when Anne’s fall occurs.

I pity Katherine too. I didn’t mean to come across as not doing so though like Anne I think if I had any contact with Katherine I would have given her short shrift at times. We tend to think of her as a young girl, poor child to die so horribly etc but she was young woman, not a child she lived in a time when from a very young age a great deal was expected by men from their womenfolk. Family reputation being a major thing. All the fa di la about Katherine being in love with Culpepper is in my opinion a load of romantic twaddle. She was a flighty piece in love with herself, partying, jewels, dancing, love, pretty clothes etc and probably in that order too. Culpepper and the rest of her flirtations coming well down the list. She was in love with fun and frolics.
I agree a young woman married to a fat, bloated, smelly, bad tempered, angry, overbearing, pompous, impotent excuse for a man would have had a rather unpleasant time of it but she saw before she let herself be bought after all. She was we are led to believe not ‘inexperienced’ in the ways of the bedchamber so it can’t have been that much of a shock to her.
I do feel sorry for her end but I do think she contributed to it. I do not believe a defence or excuse can be made because of her age.

I like that word ‘twaddle’.
Poor Kitty, I do pity her too. All that sudden fame and glamour. Well, she was irresponsible, but then again, I have to agree it is hard to stick with a rotten log. Imagine having to sit on it. Ugh.

It does make you wonder though, that if she had of got pregnant. Would Henry of given any credence to what came falling out of the old closet in the November of 1541? Personally I think you should look at K.H was she actually capable of bearing children? after all she had a very torrid and sexual relationship with Derham, and yet there was no child. Was it entirely possible that she herself was infertile?
Henry was able to get an erection and have sex so therefore there was no doubt he could still perform sexually, however perhaps he was still perfectly able to produce children.
Although judging by how long it took for Jane to become pregnant I think it’s quite possible that he had perhaps a low sperm count.
If we say that she also had a sexual relationship, as some believe she did with Culpepper, again why did she not get pregnant?
The mear thought of what porr K.H had to suffer night after night with an aging stinky old walrus turns my stomach, and I don’t expect it did much for K.H’s stomach either.
If we take it that old blubber mountain was impotent one has to ask why? and how?. Was something he was taking for the pain in his leg causing problems down below?, or did as some historians believe he had contracted syphillis, and that could have made him impotent? Perhaps I am a bit stupid but surely if a man is impotent he can’t get an erection, that Henry was able to do that makes me think that he did have a low sperm count and it was just damned bad luck that he couldn’t get K.H pregnant.

I have always wondered about Katherine and Henry in bed, not a pretty thought really, but the point being, for a good part of their marriage he suffered badly with his leg and kept away from her then. Also she had all these nights when Jane (allegedly) was shuffling Culpepper in and out of the young brides bedchamber so just how often did Henry actually attend on his young wife to collect on his nuptial rights?
The fact that he was all over her in the daytime when he was with her to my mind shows a man who has lost ‘it’ but needs to keep face with his mates or whatever.
I agree it is likely they did have had some couplings as it were because Henry did ask her if she was pregnant but then again that too could have been all for show.
Jeez the man is King, has a reputation to uphold, wears a codpiece that could contain a month’s Tesco shop, has had it stated in court for all to hear – at the trial of George Boleyn – that he suffered from impotency, took ages to get his last wife pregnant, is waddling around like an overweight, heavily pregnant whale and is very touchy on the subject of his manhood. I think he would be putting on an act a good part of the time and Katherine would happily have gone along with backing him up for a new ruby or two or a lovely big cake……………..

Katherine was pretty, plump and an early developer both physically and mentally. She lost her mother as a child, and her debt-ridden father disappeared to Calais with a new wife within months of her mothers death. Her step-grandmother took her in, where she learned that she had a power over men that she could use to her advantage. Katherine was educated enough by the Tudor standard, she could read, write and play music. Madox was her music tutor who she claimed fell in love with her, and according to Madox, she him. However, she didn’t sleep with Madox, telling him “I will never be naught with you, and able to marry me ye be not.” Dereham won Katherine’s affection over Madox, as he was both better looking and had more money to spend on pretty gifts and tokens. Dereham unlike Madox was allowed into the maidens dormitory’s at night with his group of other favoured gentlemen. Here they would eat and drink, and be merry till the early hours of the morning. There is no indication at that point that they were having sex, as even the duchess said she didn’t want Katherine “Banqueting at night, as it would harm her beauty.” Obviously the men getting in the ladies rooms was not taken very seriously.
In 1539 Katherine was invited to court to serve Anne of Cleves. This was befitting her status. She later recalled “All that knew me and kept my company, knew how glad and desirous I was to come to court”. This shows she did have an ambitious side. She left Dereham on a bad note, showing she didn’t take their relationship particularly seriously.
At court she was linked to Culpepper (her cousin), they had a meeting of minds and courted for some time before drifting apart due to quarrels. Henry had also noticed her, taking a fancy to her the first time he saw her. By 1540 their very public love affair was under-way, and all assumed they had consummated the relationship before they wed. Henry found it easy to have sex with Katherine, who in comparison to Anne of Cleves restored his ego. He didn’t seem particularly concerned about where Katherine got her sexual prowess from, no doubt he was too preoccupied with his new found ‘youth’. Her family manipulated her, telling her how to handle Henry and enticed her with lavish banquets and beautiful dresses. Henry treated Katherine with love and respect, ignoring Kingly duty to spoil her with affection and gifts. They hunted and banqueted, living easily during the great drought that summer of 1540.
Visitors to court described her as graceful, and she dressed in the French fashions, yet her motto echoed that of Jane Seymour “No other will but his”. Katherine dressed and behaved like Anne Boleyn, but was submissive and ready to obey like Jane Seymour. This shows she was not as stupid as people are lead to think. It was a winning combination and it was remarked upon that Henry seemed more in love with Katherine than he had been with any of the previous wives.
As Queen, Katherine showed a shrewd political sense, and always succeeded when begging Henry to be lenient. She also brought about some solidarity with the royal children, giving them gifts. She took in her old friends and gave them positions in her household. This may be viewed as a stupid move, as Dereham was one of the people given a job, but it could also been that she simply wanted people she cared about around her. On progress she was seen looking desirably at Culpepper by her ladies, and was found to have been visited at night by a mysterious person, and to have also bolted her door one night, which was unusual. Meanwhile Dereham was running his mouth telling all of his previous affair with the Queen, since he was jealous of Culpepper stealing Katherine’s affection.
When Katherine’s past was found out, and the affair with Culpepper, she went to her death with dignity. She showed genuine concern for her friends and family, over herself. I think she genuinely loved Culpepper, but in a misguided way. I think she loved Henry too, but only because he gave her stability and love, as her father should have. I see Katherine as a kind, giddy girl trapped in a woman’s body, used by men and women alike. Like Anne she was misunderstood, but at core the evidence suggests she had a big heart, was obviously more intelligent than is believed and above all else fell in love and enjoyed the pleasure of love. I honestly don’t see a problem in that, this is the 21st century after all! She was just another teenage girl looking for love in the wrong places.

Well put, Elllie!

KH found herself in an impossible situation. I am not sure KH and Culpeper loved one another, but it seemed she found him exciting, which she needed in her life. Was it smart for her to engage in an affair while married to the King? No, but I can understand why she did it, and I cannot fault her for it. I feel she was a mislead young woman who was ill-prepared for the world, especially to be the King’s consort. She lacked the education and training necessary to fit the role. It was not her fault, but the fault of the adults in her life, who were supposed to be responsible for her. Yet, it seemed no one really cared for this poor girl.

She was seen as prey for both Madox and Dereham. They used and abused her. Then she was prey for the Howards, who pushed (what they knew was) an young and highly impressionaable young woman into the arms of a disgusting man who was old enough to be her father, or grandfather. It sickens me, really. There is no place in my heart to blame KH for her life downfall. I blame those adults around her for not protecting, educating, caring, and understanding her. She was disposable, without a proper guardian. At the end of the day, her short and sad life ended because she made an incalculable mistake, but her progress there as not all of her own making, and no one will ever convince me differently.

This is just my opinion, but I feel for this young girl. Yes, she may have been in her twenties, but I know plenty of girls that age who are ill-equipped to deal with the real world. Thankfully, they have friends and parents who protect them.

As for how Anne would treat KH, I hope she would look at her and see herself, but also she her own daughter. I hope Anne would do anything to protect her. She went to great lengths to make sure Elizabeth was properly cared for. I imagine that the same maternal instinct would kick in and protect KH from such wrong doing. Anne took care of her own, and I doubt KH would be any different.