I’ve always wondered why Thomas Howard had never arranged a marriage for Kathryn. He was in a position to make advantagous marriages for his nieces and nephews. Did he arrange any other ammriages ofr his young relatives?

Many women were married at 15 or so. And often to men many yeras older and in that Kathryn and Henry’s marriage was unrmarkable, even though to modern eyes it seems strange.

Well put Ellie..
K.H was betrayed and let down by everyone who knew her, during her short life.
Father betrayed her and humiliated the family.

Step-grandmother didn’t really bother with her much. I don’t mean that she didn’t provide for K.H because she did, but lets just say K.H’s lifestyle within the Duchesses household was not what you call the norm of the gentry. K.H could read and write, and did know perhaps some courtly eqiuette, but perhaps not enough to totally fit in with other people at court. Which was probably why she unwisely admitted her freinds to the court from the duchesses household. It was her way of trying to fit in. I really can’t get to grips of why the Duchess wrote a letter of recommendation for Derham? She knew that K.H and Derham had, had a relationship.

Old Man Norfolk. Before K.H’s behaviour came to light, he was all over her like a rash, and made her a superstar (for want of a better word)
When K.H fell, he dropped her like a hot brick and was only concerned with saving his own neck and fortune. I would have thought he would have at least tried to defend her, after all this was the last shot the Howards would get at overthrowing the Seymour brothers in getting control of the King, Edward and the realm. Although I think when K.P was under suspistion, there was a thought of putting forward Mary Howard as a possible bride, If K.P head rolled.

Jane Bulmer and others. Freely admitted to Sir Richard Rich and Wiolsley (Shocking spelling I know) that K.H had had a sexual relationship with Derham, when in the Duchesse’s household etc. Thus saving their own necks. I say others, but did any of K.H’s ladies actually dob her in, or was it just Joan Bulmer?

Jane Rochford. I rather think that Jane was put into this situation, because she was being blackmailed or something by Old man Howard, Culpepper or maybe even K.H herself. Either way Jane was the sprat to catch the mackeral. Small wonder she lost her wits for a while to pile all K.H’s behaviour down on her shoulders was all wrong. Jane may have had her part to play in this whole sorry mess, but I doubt she was a willing actress in it.

Culpepper. I think there is a lot about Culpepper that we have yet to discover. I somehow get the impression that he was a bit of a scoundral, and perhaps viewed K.H as a play thing, I don’t think he was in love with her. Which I feel is quite sad as I believe that K.H did love him.
Culpepper was perhaps a little like Henry was in his youth, a playboy. Perhaps Henry still saw himself as the Golden youth of his past and Culpepper flattered his ego enough to believe it too. Therefore when Henry found out that Culpepper had been fiddling around with his wife behind his back that must have been the final nail in the coffin of Henry’s youth. Henry was devestated by 1) his wife and 2) his freind.
Culpepper and K.H in short had betrayed him, and were laughing up their sleeves at him. Small wonder Henry was so angry. Was Culpepper sentenced to the full horror, which was then commuted to the chopping block or was he sentenced just for the chopping block?
If he was sentenced to the full horror I wonder why Henry commuted it? Did stinky actually have atouch of compassion for Culpepper?

Derham. K.h’s biggest mistake was admitting him into her household. But what if she hadn’t what would he have done? I rather think he would have still run his mouth, but at least perhaps Old man Howard might have been able to devise some sort of accident to happen to him, or maybe buy him off. By admitting him to her household, if he just suddenly disappeared a few eyebrows would be raised. I think that he saw K.H as his wife, so his behaviour within her household was understandable from his point of view. After all he had been cuckolded, by 2 men, plus K.H was
a bigamist. He was angry with her. He went to Ireland to perhaps seek his fortune to provide a better life for his wife, and give a home to be proud of. With promises of love and fidelity from her etc, and when he came back he not only discovered that she was no longer in the Duchess’s household but had married the King. I wonder what pressure he brought to bear down on the Duchess to get her to write the letter of recomendation for him? More to the point, if the Duchess knew of the state of affairs between him and K.H why didn’t she warn K.H that Derham was back. Comming back from Ireland travelling from the port to Horsham, getting a letter done and getting to the court was possible I suppose but I would have thought that Derham would have wanted to have a wash and brush up and some food before he went to meet K.H?
I think he knew by running his mouth he would die for it, even if everything he said was lies, so in affect he committed suicide.
Perhaps he thought that Henry would just divorce K.H and they would ride off into the sunset, all forgiven and forgotten?

K.H is perhaps one of the saddest of all the Queens before and since the Tudors. A young girl tossed into the Lions den to be eaten alive.
K.H did have a big and loving heart, and ultimely that heart destroyed her. She saw the world through rose coloured glasses, but didn’t always think about where the conseqences of her actions would lead her. In short an immature teenager who was trying to fly before she could walk.

Elliemarianna said

Boleyn said

K.H wasn’t thick but I don’t think she was itelligent either. In today’s world she would probably rank perhaps a c+ or B grade student.

Haha I am a B student… I wouldn’t say you need straight A’s to be intelligent…

Inteligence is something that simply can’t be measured anyway. The old saying is you should never judge a book by it’s cover, and Stephen Hawking is the epitome of that saying. Underneath his appearence lives one of the most gifted Astrothingamagig.
I don’t actually see myself as intelligent I just am what I am.

Elliemarianna said

Boleyn said

Elliemarianna said

Boleyn said

K.H wasn’t thick but I don’t think she was itelligent either. In today’s world she would probably rank perhaps a c+ or B grade student.

Haha I am a B student… I wouldn’t say you need straight A’s to be intelligent…

Inteligence is something that simply can’t be measured anyway. The old saying is you should never judge a book by it’s cover, and Stephen Hawking is the epitome of that saying. Underneath his appearence lives one of the most gifted Astrothingamagig.
I don’t actually see myself as intelligent I just am what I am.

But were you not judging Katherine’s intelligence?

True. I rather think that K.H was extremely naive in some ways. perhaps that was why Henry was attracted to her. He could mould her into the image he wanted to be. KOA. A.B and perhaps J.S had too much of their own will to be governed totally by Henry. AOC well I suppose she could could be likened to a doormat, as she did simply let Henry walk right over her and got shook outside the next day to get rid of the dirt. Which is kind of funny really as wasn’t that exactly what Henry wanted. I’m not saying AOC was thicker than a corned beef sandwich. because she certainly was thick perhaps concerned with the learning that KOA and A.B had, certainly but AOC showed a very shrewd and prudent sence of charater when Henry wanted rid. She took what Henry offered and retired gracefully. I think that perhaps Henry respected her for that.
And strange as it sounds that as they were quite freindly with each other for the rest of Henry’s life I get the feeling that if he had given his marriage to her chance it might have actually worked out.

Good point Juliane. By the way I haven’t welcomed you abroad our Tudor Rollercoaster have I? That is very remiss of me so I apoligize. Anyway welcome abroad, we are a freindly bunch with a good sence of humour, and enjoy sharing the odd joke or 2 with each other as well as having good debates. Keep your posts comming.. -X-

Anyhoo I think it’s quite possible that K.H did get bored in court, she had her freinds of course, but for the most part she was surrounded by a load of stuffed shirts, who frowned apon her playful high spirits. Girls were expected to be miniture grown up’s from the time they were weaned.
Playful high spirits were excepted as the norm from boys, but I rather think K.H was a little bit of a tomboy and she certainly wasn’t ready to settle down and do the whole wife and mother bit. If perhaps Henry had been 10 years younger and in better health. he might have been able to cool her down a little (I hope that makes sence) But let’s face it he was an old man and as some have pointed out old enough to be her father. Prematurely aged stinking from his ulcerated leg, short tempered, morbidly obese, and unable to keep up with the demands of his young wife. Basically a git. When I say unable to keep up with K.H’s demands I mean it from a general point of view not just sexually, although that was for the most part the crux of the matter where Henry was concerned. K.H Kind of loved Henry in her own way, but perhaps viewed him more as a father figure, K.H’s father had brought her very few if any jewels and if he did he probably took them back when he was broke to flog them off and pay his debts. Henry gave her more dresses and jewels than she had ever had in her life. So I think her love for Henry was more to do with what he would give her, she just had to smile and look pretty, the only thing that she must have found totally aborrant was having El Stinko grind away at her night after night.
K.H must have got terribly bored having to sit by Henry when they had these banquets and entertainments, whilst everybody else was dancing and having fun. Henry did I beleive have a few weeks respite from his bad leg and was able to dance and spend some time with K.H, but of course that soon came to an end and he was back to being just a lump of blubber plonked on the throne. K.H couldn’t really go and dance with anyone other than the King as the stuffed shirts would have gossiped. I think Henry did let her dance with Culpepper sometimes, but I rather think there was a lot of tongue clicking from the stuffed shirts.

Mya Elise said

See, I hate how everything is a mystery, how we don’t know all the facts. It’s frustarating.
I agree with bascially everying Elliemariana said and I definately don’t think Katheryn was an idiot, she wasn’t dumb but in this situation she didn’t make the best and smartest decisions but I don’t blame her for looking elsewhere for someone to fall in love with because I don’t think Henry got the job. I think Katheryn loved the attention and being spoiled but I think she over-estimated Henry’s love for her because I believe when she heard about Henry finding out about Culpepper I think she thought she’d explain her way out of it and all would be well. I feel almost the same about Katheryn’s execution and Anne’s execution – it was wrong and shouldn’t of happend.

Well it is as I said a few weeks ago. You think you have got a mystery all suited and booted, but then comes along another mystery which bites you in the bum. Although you must admit a lot of therory’s put forward are genuinely possible, and may or may not have happened. We can really only go on what books we have read, be in fact or fictional books, and then using our own minds to work out what may have gone on, within the courts. It’s good that we have this site to express our views not everyone might agree with our (meaning everyone who uses this site)
ideas but it’s nice to think that someone will listen to what you have to say without calling you an idiot because the history books say this and that’s what happened etc. I hope that makes sence.

Mya Elise said

Yeah, Boleyn, I understand. It’s nice to discuss things and try to figure out possibilites of what happend in times when they didn’t have TV’s and radio where to listened to everything happening. I’ve said before that I don’t know anyone personally that like the History that I do and it sucks, I mean my father and brother like history but they don’t get into it as much as I do.
I just wish we had ways to know detail by detail of everything that happend back then so we wouldn’t have to guess all the time. But it’s kind of fun playing around with ideas of what might of happend.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who is stuck with family members who don’t like history, or as you say this period of history. It’s annoying too.
The only real way we could actually get the whole picture about what went on is to invent time travel and go back in time and live there, but be unseen and unheard., otherwise we could screw up the time lines etc..

Boleyn said

Anyanka said

I’ve always wondered why Thomas Howard had never arranged a marriage for Kathryn. He was in a position to make advantagous marriages for his nieces and nephews. Did he arrange any other ammriages ofr his young relatives?

Many women were married at 15 or so. And often to men many yeras older and in that Kathryn and Henry’s marriage was unrmarkable, even though to modern eyes it seems strange.

Anyanka.
I believe that Old Man Howard had earmarked K.H as a possible mistress for the King when she was first put into the duchesses house hold. Yeah I know it’s a oddball theory but you know my theories are off the latch at times..
If we take K.H bithdate as 1520 she would have been 13 when A.B was married to the King. The howards couldn’t have known the out come of what was going to happen to A.B, so lets say hypothetically A.B wasn’t executed in 1536, that would have made K.H 16 old enough to be fodder for Henry. A.B of course fell so that put pay to that plan so Old Man Howard had to come up with a new plan I don’t think it invlved marriage with the King, that I believe was entirely Henry’s idea. So in 1540 K.H was a court as one of AOC ladies, the rest we know.
Either way Old Man Howards plan backfired and he got burnt too. I don’t what it is about the old man he just makes my flesh crawl.

Norfolk was alway looking to secure marriages and positions at court for his nieces and nephews. As head of the Howard Klan that was his responsibility. Katherine’s brothers and sisters were at the Duchess’ home also. Norfolk placed Katherine’s siblings and half siblings at court. Some married, some did not. I couldn’t find wives for three of her brothers.
I couldn’t find any dates for marriages and hardly any dates for births. Katherine entered the household of Anne of Cleves in 1540. If she was born in 1520 that would make her 20 years old. I tend to go with the later date of birth. If Katherine was born in 1525-26, she was 15-16 when she entered Anne’s service. 17-18 when she was beheaded. I think Norfolk placed KH in Henry’s line of vision on purpose. I can’t say for sure he was planning on having Henry want her as a queen, but he certainly saw an opening.