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10:49 am
June 19, 2009
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In the pictures on Facebook, I have a picture of a letter from the current Boleyn's in Kent explaining the family tree showing how the Sisters Boleyn of Clonony were related. When I visited yesterday, Birr Castle had a festival going on, it was too busy for Sleuthing, unfortunately, I will be back there though. I plan to visit with Rebecca at Clonony again in October, when we are both under less pressure and have more time to talk. It was our first time meeting and promised to keep in contact.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
10:56 am
August 25, 2010
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HollyDolly said:
Thank you Ipaud and ladies.Boy this thread is really getting interesting.It might be George had a child by a Clere cousin,just wish we could find the missing link so to speak. Interesting the portrait of Mary and Elizabeth Bolyen is still around.
As for why history doesn't account for George's illigitimate children I don't know.You would think something would be recorded some place.Of course, if he did have affairs, the women might have been just servants or town women ,so their names are lost to history.
If he had affairs with any lady at court, i assume it might be mentioned somewhere,hard to say.
I was thinking the same thing! The thing is the slab states that these girls are daughters of Thomas, son of George, the son of George Viscount of Rochford so the illegitimate child would have been George (Jr.) and I can understand no information on his mother in that case (as you said) but what about there after. Who did George Jr. marry to have Thomas, did Thomas have siblings, who did Thomas marry to have these girls … I mean they can't ALL be illegitimate can they?!
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
11:02 am
June 19, 2009
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I mentioned the Clere possibility to Rebecca and she said no, there was another Lady in England. I have just looked at the family tree written by the Boleyn decendant and missread. George (Anne's Brother) had a son George out of wedlock. This second George had two daughters, Elizabeth and Mary (it is written that The second George was a cousin of Elisabeth I. It is hadr to see all of the letter properly on Facebook, I will put up sections of it, to see it better.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
11:02 am
August 2, 2010
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I would love to know the same thing, TeamAnne. I believe I said this in a former post, but I'm going to write (nonfic) about this, following the family tree and gleaning all the information I can, complete with pictures. If we can find this out, it would be very helpful.
I'm doubly curious about who is in the line from George Rochford because obviously, since Elizabeth and Mary lived in a castle (Clonony) somewhere someone married a rich person, which means that perhaps the woman who George had an affair with probably had some standing, even if it was slight.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
11:14 am
February 24, 2010
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Sorry I meant Thomas, as the Father of the girls not George. George's grandson? It wasn't George, brother of Anne.
I wish I had a facebook page but I don't. I better get one soon.
11:23 am
August 25, 2010
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ipaud said:I mentioned the Clere possibility to Rebecca and she said no, there was another Lady in England. I have just looked at the family tree written by the Boleyn decendant and missread. George (Anne's Brother) had a son George out of wedlock. This second George had two daughters, Elizabeth and Mary (it is written that The second George was a cousin of Elisabeth I. It is hadr to see all of the letter properly on Facebook, I will put up sections of it, to see it better.
Yeah I think now that I found the link from Clere to Boleyn that they just happen to be close family, and possibly branched to Ireland together after heads started rolling. I would be highly interested in that letter as it differs from what is stated on the girls grave! I got your PM with your facebook page but I don't want to intrude on your privacy, I thought it was public and about things of this nature, sorry. Maybe Claire can post your pictures with an article once, if, this is ever figured out. A funny thing is I actually emailed Clonony Castle when this thread first started, I haven't heard back yet which is fine but I wonder if it actually went to the Rebecca you speak of. 
She seems like a great person full of knowledge on the subject!
boleynfan, I remember you saying you would like to write on this so that is why I have been posting any links I come across. Some may have nothing to help us but one may hold that key, who knows. As far as them living in the Castle it is said that the Castle was giving to Thomas Boleyn while he was in good favor with the King. It would have passed to George after him, if not taken back from the King as it seems it wasn't, and then from there it should have actually legally passed to Mary like everything else did. Anywho, it was a Boleyn home so not something they married into at some point I don't think.
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
12:13 pm
August 2, 2010
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Thank you, TeamAnne! That makes sense about the castle, and I'll incorporate that into my writing (what shall I call the writing? A biography, not really, since it's not on one person….a history, maybe?).
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
1:08 pm
August 25, 2010
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Boleynfan said:Thank you, TeamAnne! That makes sense about the castle, and I'll incorporate that into my writing (what shall I call the writing? A biography, not really, since it's not on one person….a history, maybe?).
Well it depends on what your main point will be and where you plan on distributing the writing I think. Not a biography for sure though. A history would be good but you need to decide on what you are writting a history of (Boleyns, the sisters, Castle, George, etc.?). You could also include “mystery” in the title to draw attention. Just a tip, make sure you leave out any information on people still living unless you have their permission (ie: the relative(s) in Kent). As far as my information on the Castle I know the plaque at Clonony Castle states that it was given to Thomas and I believe one of the links I provided too. I wish there was an actual record though for more solid proof.
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
2:01 pm
August 2, 2010
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TeamAnne: Thanks for helping me! I'm not sure where I'll distribute the writing–thoughts? I will be writing a history of (my main point is about) the line of George Boleyn: George Jr. and his daughters Elizabeth and Mary, focusing on Elizabeth and Mary and their lives at Clonony and wherever else. I might add a bit about their descendants and living ones, though it didn't seem like in the family tree that the two girls had children. Again, thank you!!
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
3:54 pm
August 25, 2010
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Boleynfan said:TeamAnne: Thanks for helping me! I'm not sure where I'll distribute the writing–thoughts? I will be writing a history of (my main point is about) the line of George Boleyn: George Jr. and his daughters Elizabeth and Mary, focusing on Elizabeth and Mary and their lives at Clonony and wherever else. I might add a bit about their descendants and living ones, though it didn't seem like in the family tree that the two girls had children. Again, thank you!!
That title sounds great, but just remember George Jr. isn't the father of the girls … Thomas, son of George Jr., was. It's all so mixed up now but I'm sure it will iron itself out soon enough for you to write a good report on it. Yeah there probably isn't need to mention living decendents unless that is where you gain information from (ie: for instance for all we know Thomas could have had siblings and therfore that line may still continue). I like helping so no problem! I think it's an interesting topic and one that doesn't see a lot of attention. The books I found that mention this stuff were all from the 1800's and then books and forums today mention it but just the fact that there may be an illegitimate branch through George Dean of Lichfield.
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
7:02 am
August 2, 2010
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Thank you, TeamAnne!! Your info helps a lot. I really appreciate it and don't worry I will refine my title!
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
11:31 am
August 25, 2010
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Ok guys, now here is my mistake with George Dean of Lichfield. In this link (below), that I posted at the beginning of our research, is where I saw “cousin-german”. I just noticed it said to Anne, not Elizabeth I. I could have sworn I saw he was cousin-german to Elizabeth and have been looking high and low to no avail. Here it is again:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ances…..0983345366
but near the entrance is a limestone flag of greater interest than
either of these things, for it bears this inscription:
Hereunder leys Elizabeth and Mary Bullyn daughter of
Thomas Bullyn Son of George Bullyn the son of George
Bullyn Viscount Rochford son of Thomas Bullyn Erle
of Ormond and Wilisheer.
I have already mentioned that Anne Boleyn had family ties with the
Ormondes, and these two women who lie asleep at Clonony were second cousins
of Queen Elizabeth, and grand-daughters of that George Boleyn who was
cousin-german of the tragic Anne herself. It seems likely that these poor
girls fled to Ireland from the wrath of the bloodthirsty Bluff King Hal, who
attainted their whole family after his queen's head had fallen.
From the looks of that link it seems this was written in a book (see top of page at link) and that perhaps earlier in the book he talks more about this family. I am going to try to find the book online and search it. Now, this would mean that George Dean of Lichfield was the son of one of Anne's uncles, so our Thomas's brothers. We may want to look into the line from that point to see if we can prove or disprove this. That would in turn prove or disprove that George Dean of Lichfield and the son of our George are either one in the same or just ancestors of each other. Does that make sense? That being said, any one of the outcomes would still make George Dean of Lichfield kinsman to Lord Hunsdon as he states in his will. I am so sorry for the mass confusion!!
Staying with George Dean of Lichfield for now, in this next link (also posted earlier on this thread) it lists dates for his time getting degrees. If someone knows anything about how the schools were done back then, that could help us with a possible birth date range which will go further to prove or disprove as this George being the same as the son of our George.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/…..5.djvu/328
1544 enters Trinity Hall, Cambridge
1552 graduated B.A.
1560 commenced master of arts
1567 graduated B.D.
1576 taken the degree of D.D., became Dean of Lichfield
I will post the school information on one or two other threads that may be able to help us.
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
4:12 am
June 19, 2009
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I talked to Rebecca at Clonony this morning, she is delighted with the interest shown here and says that it makes the work she does restoring more meaningful. She is most happy. Oh, she has the will where Clonony was left to Mary and Elisabeth Boleyn. It mentions who their mother was, but it is not possible to make it out the name. (I will move up the date up when I will visit next from next month to this month as it would be far to long for you ladies to go without sleep) I shall go and photograph the Will and work it in photoshop to see if I can get a name of the mother of the Clonony girls, Mary and Elisabeth.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
12:12 pm
August 25, 2010
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ipaud said:I talked to Rebecca at Clonony this morning, she is delighted with the interest shown here and says that it makes the work she does restoring more meaningful. She is most happy. Oh, she has the will where Clonony was left to Mary and Elisabeth Boleyn. It mentions who their mother was, but it is not possible to make it out the name. (I will move up the date up when I will visit next from next month to this month as it would be far to long for you ladies to go without sleep) I shall go and photograph the Will and work it in photoshop to see if I can get a name of the mother of the Clonony girls, Mary and Elisabeth.
As usual ipaud you're awsome … wish I could join you in your travels … so lucky! I am ordering the will of George Dean of Lichfield at some point to see if it helps with anything, or disproves him all together.
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
12:24 pm
February 24, 2010
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Thank you ipaud. You are the best. I'm so glad we have you in Ireland to do the hard work. Would love to be there to help.
TeamAnne what happened to your picture? Thank you also for the digging you are doing. So interesting. Quite the mystery.
5:39 am
August 25, 2010
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Sharon said:
Thank you ipaud. You are the best. I'm so glad we have you in Ireland to do the hard work. Would love to be there to help.
TeamAnne what happened to your picture? Thank you also for the digging you are doing. So interesting. Quite the mystery.
Hmm, well goodness I don't know … thanks for pointing my missing picture out! 
You're welcome for digging, I love it!
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
9:46 am
September 19, 2010
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ipaud said:
There is some tragedy in the story of the Boleyn sisters that lived at Clonony. Apparently, Elisabeth was the first to die and Mary not being able to live without her sister threw herself to her death from the tower of the castle. They were both buried in the Quarry area behind the castle, under the stone with the “Bullen” markings as written already here in this topic. Adjacent to the castle is a canal built in the 19th century, the builders of the canal used the Quarry of the castle for limestone to build it. On finding the grave of the two Boleyn sisters, buried together, the rather large stone was moved to the front of the castle, where it still lies today. The remains of the two sisters were re-buried in a near by graveyard. Unfortunately, the exact location, no one knows. The gravestone was just inscribed on one end and the writing is quite small in context of quite a large stone. In Henry VIII time after the death of Anne Boleyn and until Elisabeth I took to the throne, any mention of “Bullen” was being erased from history. There was room to perhaps complete the gravestone when this purge was over? Attempts to move it since with modern machinery have failed maybe it lies where it should be? who knows?
There are pictures of the sisters at the castle, the resemblance to Elisabeth I is striking, so much so, I believed that i was looking at pictures of Elisabeth I and not Elisabeth and Mary Boleyn.
I just googled for some information on these women, didn’t expect to find this much chat about them.
Years ago I read a 19th c article, which I’m sure was about this tombstone, and the local tradition reported was that the two Boleyn cousins had been murdered after the attainder in order to tidy up the royal succession. I’ve no idea of the source.
6:34 am
July 30, 2010
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If Mary Boleyn did throw herself off the tower, that would be suicide, and didn’t they usually bury them at a cross roads in those days, or am I thinking of something else? I assume the two were buried together since if the story is true, people thought that perhasp she wasn’t in her right mind,and they were cousins of the queen. As Alice in Wonderland says, this story gets curiouser and curiouser.
Wonder if there are any parish records that mention the sisters,and one would have to check the local catholic parish records and maybe archives of the Church in Dublin or the local diocese to see if there is anything on them.I say that because I donot know how wide spread the protestant faith was in Ireland at that time, nor if they were protestant.
12:48 pm
August 25, 2010
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HollyDolly said:
If Mary Boleyn did throw herself off the tower, that would be suicide, and didn’t they usually bury them at a cross roads in those days, or am I thinking of something else? I assume the two were buried together since if the story is true, people thought that perhasp she wasn’t in her right mind,and they were cousins of the queen. As Alice in Wonderland says, this story gets curiouser and curiouser.
Wonder if there are any parish records that mention the sisters,and one would have to check the local catholic parish records and maybe archives of the Church in Dublin or the local diocese to see if there is anything on them.I say that because I donot know how wide spread the protestant faith was in Ireland at that time, nor if they were protestant.
I have been looking online for Irish records I can search about the family but haven’t had any luck yet. The curator of this castle apparently has tons of information but I haven’t seen any of it. I got a response from her once but nothing back on my second email. She is super busy though so it’s understandable. Some things she told me weren’t lining up so I am hoping to at some point check her sources and maybe find more.
“Oh death, rock me asleep, Bring me to quiet rest, Let pass my weary guiltless ghost out of my careful breast.”
8:52 am
July 30, 2010
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So has anything new been learned about Anne Boleyn's irish cousins, Mary and Elizabeth Boleyn?
Have been so busy that i forget to check in from time to time.
Has anyone been able to discover the name of their mother yet?
