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4:57 am
April 6, 2010
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Claire's post today about the May Day joust really made me wonder about something. It is suspected that Elizabeth Browne, the Countess of Worcester, is the woman who provided testimony that led to Anne's arrest. Lady Jane Rochford/Boleyn is also alleged to have given key information about Anne's incestuous relationship with her brother George, though this is disputed.
Why would Anne keep such women in her inner circle if they disliked her so much as to betray her, up to and including to her death?
During the reigns of Katharine of Aragon and Catherine Parr, there are stories of ladies in waiting to those two Queens who were fiercely loyal to their mistresses, and highly protective of them, yet Anne Boleyn apparently had at least two vipers in her inner circle.
What was the process noblewomen went through to become ladies in waiting? I know they were appointed due to rank, and probably because of favors to their families, for services rendered to King and country. But was there a case when a lady in waiting could have been dismissed from service by a Queen consort because of misbehavior or hostility? I know Elizabeth I dismissed some of her ladies, but she had the advantage of being a Queen Regnant.
IF Anne had had the ability to dismiss a lady in waiting because of hostility, why didn't she exercise the option? Was it because she was attempting to curry favor with powerful noble families to gain support for her marriage and Elizabeth's inheritance rights, just in case she didn't give birth to the much desired son? Was she interested in cultivating a genuine friendship with someone who disliked her? Or is it possible that she knew of their hostility, and thought her place as Henry's wife was secure enough to protect her from any backlash?
But it might be possible that Anne could not dismiss her ladies in waiting, despite their dislike of her, because it took Henry's word on their “firing” from their position, and Henry did not exercise the option, because he needed the support of the families of these women. Did he just think it typical female behavior – backbiting, gossip, etc. – unworthy of his notice, until it came in handy and he needed to get rid of Anne?
8:24 am
July 9, 2009
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I think you're closest when you say she needed to curry favor with the noble families. Also, the one time Anne did try to fire one of her ladies because she was sleeping with her husband, she got in trouble for it. Jane Rochford, her sister-in-law, supposedly colluded on this. Jane's biographer Julia Fox takes this to mean the two sisters-in-law were friends. Jane had also been married to her brother since before Anne was involved with the king, so they may indeed have been close at some point. The Countess of Worcester was also her friend, or at least Anne believed she was, since she made comments in the tower that she was worried about the effect Anne's fall was having on Ms. Browne's pregnancy, implying she would have been upset at what was happening to her mistress. Of course, you could interpret it as sarcasm on Anne's part- that the Countess should feel guilty about what she had done and the guilt was the cause of her stress.
Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.
1:38 am
May 5, 2010
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I'd have thought that Ann would have had full control of who was in her household. She could easily have fired them if she wanted to.
Don't forget 'ladies' at that time were most likely much more demure and were always conscious of how they appeared to others so I guess Ann probably never really saw the 'real' personalities of her 'ladies' come out.
Also they would have hated to lose their jobs so they would have kept their feelings very much under wraps if they disliked her.
VINCERE VEL MORI
8:55 am
August 2, 2010
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Sorry, I know this is very late, but I just wanted to say: Anne couldn't risk even more nobles disliking her one she became Queen because she already had so many enemies. Also, like you said Melissa, Henry wouldn't allow her to dismiss ladies that he 'favored'.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
11:08 am
June 19, 2009
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Court was played like chess, Anne had previously played the game and won as she was a Lady in Waiting for Katherine, in hind sight, maybe she needed to be more careful but to be broadsided by the most unbelievable accusations would have been hard to see coming.
Regardless of who was there, there was a plan made for poor Anne and some one else would have turned her in, and in a heartbeat, for such was the game and how it was played. I don't think any of them expected the outcome and would have expected her to be sidelined. Unfortunately for Anne, she was a threat with the information she would have been party to with her seven years in close proximity to Henry. Was this possibly a convincing enough argument for Anne's death to a raving Henry, following his accident?
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
12:46 pm
February 24, 2010
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I'm surprised more of Anne's women didn't turn on her. I wish the ones that did not had told their story after Henry died. Hidden it somewhere to be found much later. We would know what the heck really went on.
ipaud, Henry would have used any excuse to be rid of her. He certainly wasn't thinking right. In his raving mind he may have considered her close proximity to the throne to be a threat. He used anything and everything to be rid of her.
Maybe the other people who testified against Anne didn't expect the horrible outcome, but Jane's testimony?? She had to have some idea. She accused Anne and George of incest for heaven's sake. What did she think would be the result? A convent for Anne? What for George? This was a treasonous act if true, and she knew it when she testified.
6:10 pm
August 2, 2010
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Sharon – Many people portray Jane Rochford as sweet and misunderstood, but I also have a hard time believing it.
Perhaps the reason more of Anne's ladies didn't turn her in was because they genuinely had affection for her? I like to think that.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
8:57 am
February 24, 2010
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I think her ladies had affection for her too. I 've not heard people calling Jane sweet and misunderstood. And WOW..Do they say it with a straight face? She was a jealous, vindictive woman. If it's true that she watched Thomas and Catherine through keyholes, she's also somewhat of a perv. Sorry, no better word comes to mind. Voyeur doesn't cut it.
11:22 am
August 2, 2010
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Yeah, about Jane Rochford…how do people even have the nerve? I read a biography that was very sympathetic toward her, and I've seen novels about “darling mistreated Jane”!! No wonder George Rochford didn't like her, who could? Viper.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
3:25 pm
June 7, 2010
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Anne must have had some enduring qualities. I remember I watched a documentary on Anne's last days, and they spoke about how the women who were suppose to spy on Anne during her imprisonment in the Tower, actually wept uncontrollably during her execution. So much for a women who was ratted out by two jealous/ambitious women (Jane Boleyn, and Countess of Worcester), and didn't have a redeeming quality in the world. The writers of this documentary, the name of which I cannot recall, consulted with Dr. Eric Ives, so there is a certain level of respectibility about it.
As for Jane Boleyn: the “biography” Julia Fox wrote about her was conjecture at best. There is such little historical evidence about her, that Fox used her feelings too much, which in turn, diluted her argument, and removed any real serious attempt to explore Jane Boleyn's life.
If only two of Anne's ladies spoke against her, that speaks more about Jane and the Countess, than it does about Anne. While some would use this as evidence of Anne's great dislilke at court, I see it as proof that the majority of her ladies were discret and served their mistress with respect and deference.
"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn
3:51 pm
April 6, 2010
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The evidence against Anne was not terribly convincing anyway. One or two ladies might have repeated some idle gossip, which was built up to make it seem plausible. Again, the key here was that Henry wanted to be rid of Anne, and even “She doesn't wash her hands as often as she should, ewww,” could have been built into a major point in the case against her.
I love the conversation, and how everyone here has contributed some mighty fine points. A pity we couldn't go back in time and help Anne win her case, huh?
LOL, I was listening to a performance of The Ghost of Anne Boleyn on YouTube, and part of me thought it was a pity no one has tried to talk to herghost in the Tower of London, to get ANNE'S side of the story.
7:57 am
August 2, 2010
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You're right, miladyblue; when Anne and George gave their defense, they made their enemies look like idiots–not only were they good orators, like you said the evidence was very sketchy and it was obvious it had been drawn up because Henry wanted to do away with Anne (much like Katherine's trial years before, although one could argue Anne's case was even more outlandish).
You're right about Anne's side of the story! My hat's off to anyone who wants to approach Anne's ghost in the Tower!
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
10:55 pm
January 9, 2010
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Anne and George defended themselves so well that they won a lot of sympathy. It was even thought that George might have had a chance of getting off, though of course that wasn't the case.
I like to think that the women who served her in the Tower came to have the same level of respect and admiration that I'm sure the vast majority of Anne's ladies at court had for her. How could they not after witnessing what would have been an incredibly courageous and spirited defence?
5:36 pm
August 2, 2010
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Bella: Anne and George, especially George, won a lot of sympathy and both did great defenses. Apparently George was almost off the hook–everyone was laughing at his accusers and their ridiculous charges–when Norfolk (I believe it was him, but perhaps my memory's not correct) trapped him by reading off a slip of paper given to him (what he read was treason against the King). Trickery.
You're probably right about the women at the Tower growing to like Anne–like you said, how could they not? But after all most of them were her enemies, though I've heard Lady Kingston, the constable's wife, grew to respect and sympathize with Anne.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
10:14 pm
August 12, 2010
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Even if some of the ladies waiting on her didn't like her, they either put up with it because they knew Anne would be gone (literally) soon or they grew to admire her courage for not breaking down before she was about to be executed. Maybe some of the ladies that waited on her felt pity thinking this could have been me. I think to know someone will die soon is hard too regardless of your thoughts towards them. Even though in those medieval times if you asked a man if he killed someone in his lifetime he would probably say yes and no one would really question it or feel compassion but I believe the ladies in waiting would still feel some compassion sort of like they are standing by a woman who is about to die (even worse that she is innocent *cause I know Anne was*) and not be able to say or do anything about it-it's like they are sort of (in a way) tainted with her blood. I don't know WHAT was wrong with Jane Rochford she is just another story… and especially to accuse George along with Anne apparently it wasn't enough to kill off one member of a family-I'm surprised she didn't just throw Mary in there. I just wonder if Jane ever really regretted it though and thought maybe I'm going to hell I have sentenced two people to death or maybe she was just too crazy. Either way her compassion level for those around her is zero. I sort of pity her in the hatred (well not really hatred because I cannot judge if I never really knew her) that I feel for her. It was like she was lost and I suppose some of the other ladies in waiting were lost to, it's not like now where choices are ditch a friend or stay by their side its between let a friend live or let them die but you could die along with them. Its a much more complicated/confusing/puzzling/disturbing.
oh and sorry this is so long, my original thought was a sentence and then my fingers just took control with the keyboard like they are still doing now…
12:38 am
April 6, 2010
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I have to agree, there is something awfully odd about Jane Parker-Boleyn, Lady Rochford. While there is nothing in the extant historic record of whatever she might have said while testifying, or if she was even called as a witness, it's safe to say that her behavior during her time as Kathryn Howard's go between* was probably nothing new.
This is important to take into consideration – she was sister in law to one Queen who had been executed on trumped up charges – she had to KNOW how much danger she was in of losing her own head. Henry, by this point, had killed two close friends (Bishop John Fisher and Thomas More) drove one wife to despair and death (Katharine of Aragon) and ordered the execution of his second (Anne).
Could it have been that while in Anne's service she somehow or another managed, for a short time, to fool Anne into believing she was a reliable friend and ally? After all, there is the story of how Anne had plotted with her to make the life of one woman Henry fancied so miserable that she would leave court voluntarily, but Henry found out and dismissed Jane instead.
Presuming, for the sake of argument that Jane did, indeed, testify against Anne and George, what was her motive? Was she lashing out in jealousy, because Anne had George's love and respect in full measure where she did not? After all, most marriages of the higher classes were arranged, and many of them were unhappy. There is no record of how Jane and George got on, but I would say it was probably unhappy, especially if it was true, that she testified in the incest charges, betraying him unto death.
She was probably even more unhappy, considering George's properties and moneys had all been confiscated by debtors and rivals, leaving her with nothing, and begging Henry to help her out of her now impoverished situation.
Did she or didn't she? Jane Parker-Boleyn, Lady Rochford is as enigmatic as Anne herself, thanks to the huge holes in the historic record, and the idiocy of their time, since women were “lessers” and “unimportant” and thus, “unworthy” of any worthwhile records being kept about them. Not even the names of the ladies who attended Anne at the scaffold the day she was executed. I kind of wonder if one of them could have been Kat Ashley, (whom I believe Anne hand picked to become Elizabeth's governess) who wanted to tell Elizabeth the truth about her mother. I also wonder if another lady could have been Ann Gainsford, her tiring woman, who spoke to George Wyatt about Anne, and is our best source of information that Anne was in no way deformed as her enemies tried to say.
* = She was definitely fingered, by both Kathryn Howard and Thomas Culpepper as being their go between. Whether or not those two acted upon their desires and committed adultery is uncertain. What is certain, however, is that Jane was arranging meetings, carrying messages and finding “love nests” for them wherever they went.
9:42 am
August 2, 2010
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I think Jane Rochford had serious mental problems! Testifying against one's own husband and sister-in-law, about something that I firmly believe was a lie?! Anne was surrounded by enemies, so it's possible that she confided in Jane since Jane was part of the family and Anne might have felt she could trust her. As for the motive of Jane Rochford–it might just have been insane jealousy, which marks her as quite a horrible person. This sounds just as bad, but I've read that she and her husband had a bad relationship and she had multiple affairs. Perhaps she had wanted to get rid of George? And lastly, this seems unlikely but why not throw this out: she could have been 'bought' by Jane Seymour, or maybe in her jealousy and dislike of Anne and George she liked Jane Seymour and meandered over to her side? If any of these are true, what a despicable woman.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
9:06 am
February 24, 2010
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Do we know who Jane had these affairs with? Maybe the rumor about her and Cromwell is not that far-fetched? This is one woman from the Tudor court that I really dislike. We do know her testimony was one that condemned Anne and George. I do wish there was more out there about her. I agree with Boleynfan. Jane may have been a bit off her rocker. She seems to have lost it completely while in the Tower awaiting her sentencing. I just hope she was aware of what she had done to Anne, George and Catherine, and also aware of what was going to happen to her. She deserved her end.
9:30 am
July 9, 2009
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Re: the ladies who attended Anne in the Tower, I know that they were chosen by Cromwell for their lack of sympathy toward Anne so it would be easier for them to report on her. They made rude comments to her (when Anne, probably fishing for information, wondered out loud if the men accused with her had someone to make their beds, one of her ladies replied that it was wondering about what went on in men's beds that had gotten her into this situation in the first place). But at the end, they did weep uncontrollably at her death and treated her body with reverence. I've heard a lot of conjecture about who these women were that assisted her on the scaffold (there is that prevalent theory that Catherine Carey was with her, which was used as a plot device in The Other Boleyn Girl), but Retha Warnicke says in her biography that it's just conjecture that Anne was able to have her own trusted ladies with her at the end. In other words, we know that Mrs. Stonor, Mrs. Coffin, Mrs. Boleyn, and Mrs. Kingston attended her before her trial and didn't get along with her. After her trial, all the records of her ladies have them weeping for her, so it was always supposed that after the trial Anne was permitted to chose her own attendants, but for all we know it was still the same four mentioned above. Perhaps by the end Anne won them over.
Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.
10:17 am
August 2, 2010
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I read once that out of the four women who attended Anne at her death, three were known and one was unknown. I know that Lady Boleyn (not her mother, her aunt or something) attended her at least before the trial, and they didn't get along at all. Curious since they were from the same family but I think Lady Boleyn supported Katherine and Mary.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
