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4:11 am
April 9, 2011
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I swear Anne's last words were: 'Today I die a Queen, but I'd rather die a wife of my brother!!'
I kid, I kid. Sorry if I caused offence. It is all meant in good humour. Just don't let PG see this.
5:14 am
June 7, 2010
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Oh, Bill. I needed that laugh this morning! Thanks! I agree, don't let PG get hold of that line. Although, she may owe you intellectual property rights!!!!
"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn
10:05 am
November 18, 2010
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Thanks Bill..
It's always bunnies.
10:03 pm
May 16, 2011
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Bill1978 said:
I swear Anne's last words were: 'Today I die a Queen, but I'd rather die a wife of my brother!!'
I kid, I kid. Sorry if I caused offence. It is all meant in good humour. Just don't let PG see this.
At first I didn't see Anne's name and thought you typed this wrong saying those were Katheryn's last words were. LOL! But then I reread it and now i'm thanking you for the laugh. Please, let's pray, PG doesn't get a hold of that line, God help us is she does cause she'll write a whole book based on those 14 (?) words and if that happend then i'd have to bang my head against my desk until I see stars.
• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.
4:51 am
April 11, 2011
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Nice one, Bill.
11:52 am
January 9, 2010
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Cheers for that Bill! Just the thing to cheer me up this morning, LOL!
12:05 pm
February 24, 2010
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Bill1978 said:
I swear Anne’s last words were: ‘Today I die a Queen, but I’d rather die a wife of my brother!!’
I kid, I kid. Sorry if I caused offence. It is all meant in good humour. Just don’t let PG see this.
LOL… Oh, Now you've done it. This could only offend someone who believed she said this. They're out there…I know they're out there!
10:08 pm
May 16, 2011
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LOL, myth crazed people, yup, they're out there.
• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.
5:28 pm
January 3, 2012
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There's one thing that intriqued me.. In the 2 part serial with Ray Winstone. When Anne (Helena Bonham-Carter) knelt down to be executed.. she said something like “forgive me Mary if I hurt you or spoke with a sharp tongue”
Now did she mean Mary Tudor or her own sister Mary Boleyn..?
She was at loggerheads with both of them, Mary Tudor because she was Mary Tudor, who she said to the Duke of Norfolk if she didn't behave, he should bang her head until it was a soft as a baked apple.
Mary Boleyn, because she didn't approve of her sister's marriage, and more or less exiled her to the country with little to no money, although I believe Anne did manage to get a Stipend restored to Mary shortly before her downfall and execution. (Anne that is not Mary)
There is also a rumour that Henry in his anger wanted to execute Mary Boleyn as well, but spared her because she had a son by him as well as by Bessie, although as we know he only ever acknowledged Bessie's son.
The son by Mary was perhaps her saving grace as it kind of put the full stop in the fact he could produce sons. 1 son could be a fluke, but 2 was as I said the full stop.
Who knows, perhaps what was said was just put in to dress things up a bit.. but it does make you wonder,
if Mary Tudor relaxed her stern and stubborn attitude towards Anne especially after her mother's death?
Did Anne forgive Mary Boleyn for (for want of a better word) betraying her and marrying someone who was lower class?
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
6:03 pm
November 18, 2010
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I've always wondered if Anne had wanted Mary to marry Cromwell* or some-one in her faction and Mary wanted out and married Stafford to avoid another poltical marriage.
* this was well before I read Wolf Hall.
It's always bunnies.
7:12 pm
June 19, 2009
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Thank you Melissa for a great thread, your understanding of Anne goes so much deeper than just a fan of a heroine. I do so enjoy your posts.
It was Anne’s speech that first got me interested in her story as in how could anyone Love someone that much before being put to death, by that person she Loved.
I would think that Cromwell and his faction in court were responsible ultimately for Anne’s demise. I do think that with the charges made, there could only be one result and the charges were made in that full knowledge of what the result would be. Anne would have been aware of her brother’s death with the other “conspirators” prior to composing her speech. I think she was under no illusion of what her fate was to be.
If we are to factor in Elisabeth in the writing, should we hear more from Kingston about this? If Elisabeth’s fate was uppermost in her mind would she not have expressed her fears more around her Ladies in waiting? One of the lady’s was Lady Kingston after all?
In the letter of the 6th of May 1536 sent pre-trial to Henry, Elisabeth is mentioned, however I don’t think that Anne had as much fear for her safety that it influenced her last speech to such a degree that she held back.
Henry would have had Anne’s letter of the 6th of May in his hands ordering the executioner Jean Rombaud. Henry ordered the cannons of the Tower of London fired to signal Anne’s death and for him to hear at Hampton Court. How it must have hurt Anne that the one she loved believed the unbelievable charges made against his Queen or would take advantage of them to rid himself of Anne.
I think Anne had accepted her faith, when there was no reaction from Henry from her letter of the 6th of May, a mockery of a trial and if she were to live, a liability to the Crown.
Anne to my mind, would have delivered this speech with dignity as Queen and from the heart. I see her going to her death as she lived. A point of note on the speech, there are a few takes on the wording, but it does not deviate much in the different versions. When she gave her speech, she was listened to and it was delivered to people who would carry her word from the Tower.
Melissa, what about making a video of the speech? I would really like to see and hear your take on it.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
6:10 am
January 3, 2012
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Ayanka,
Thanks for that.. To be honest Cromwell is someone I never even thought of, but now that you have said it, it really does make sence.. Would have meant that Cromwell wouldn't have turned against her.
Good for Mary to follow her heart, instead of being told what to do..
I know her prior marriage to William Carey was a rushed through affair with neither grace or gravy for Mary's feelings, and to render her respectable, because she was alledgely already pregnant, by the King.
I think Anne's main thoughts in her final days would have been to safe guard Elizabeth and she made sure that come what may Elizabeth would be sure to inherit the throne.. Although she must have known that Henry had named Elizabeth bastard, and that was only reversed during Catherine's Parr's Reign.
Only to have that reversed in Mary Tudor's reign.. I'm not certain if Mary Tudor towards the end of her life reversed that order again!! and named Elizabeth heir.. I know that the Catholics believed that Mary Queen of Scots felt that she should have ruled and not Elizabeth.. I think Anne would have loved to have seen this Royal battle of wits.
Anyway I digress. I've just had another thought, stupid as it may seem. Maybe Anne might have wanted Mary to marry Henry Percy.. Yeah he was married but his wife had wanted to divorce him and tried to use Anne as an excuse to do it. Perhaps Anne had decided that to shut Henry Percy's wife up, was to persuade Henry to allow Percy's wife to divorce him and somehow buy her off and then marry Mary to Henry Percy to shut him up. He was one of the judges at her show trial so he could have claimed to have had a conflict of interests and not been able to act as a judge if he was married to Mary?
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
10:52 am
May 16, 2011
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Now that it's been brought up, I wonder if Anne was angry with Mary about her marriage to Will Stafford because when Anne had wanted to marry Percy it didn't happen yet Mary successfuly married her love match. I know Anne loved Henry (King) at that time but maybe there was some resentment still and Anne was maybe a little mad that Mary got her way and Anne did not. Typical sisterly rivalry, right? And then Anne banished Mary cause that's what happend to her, Anne was sent or went (?) away for a while. Anne wanted to punish Mary for marrying her love match and since she was in charge she went ahead and banished her…
*This is just a theory, i'm not saying this is what happend!*
• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.
12:07 pm
January 3, 2012
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Mya Elise: Hmm it's a posibility.. I do feel that Anne was extremely peeved at Mary probably in more ways than one to be honest.. I think also a lot of her anger towards Mary could have been that Mary had, had 2 sons. 1 by possibly the king and another by William. So maybe it was a sort of sisterly rivalry of why can't I have a son too, thing..
There was a rumour that Anne approached Mary with a view of adopting Henry and getting the king to ligitimise him and name him heir?
Tudor Times were a real mixed bag of intriques and suspistions so who knows whether or not that this was true..
Another thing that has always foxed me is Thomas Boleyn's attitude towards Anne's downfall and death.
Why did he turn against Anne so completely? Did he believe the lies about her? or Did he choose to believe to save his own neck and his fortune? I know that he wasn't at court for a few months after Anne's show trial, but he was at the christening of Edward. But after that little is heard of him.. Perhaps Henry sent him on a few diplomatic mission abroad? after all he was a very good ambassador for Britain.. Did he mourn the loss of Anne who it was said was his favourite? or did he just forget her completely as though she never existed?
Anne mother on the other hand was supposed to have devoted to Anne, and must have felt the lost of such a daughter as Anne was, terribly. Again rumour has it that Elizabeth died of a broken heart..it's possible as she only died a few years after Anne, and of course Thomas died only a year or so after his wife, maybe he too died of a broken heart?
In the Other Boleyn girl film, Elizabeth Boleyn strikes Thomas around the face and says “look what you have done” granted that was probably just put into the film for entertainment value rather than being fact, but was it? for all we know that could be exactly what happened?
How did Elizabeth and Thomas cope around each other after Anne and George's deaths? Elizabeth must have also bore some sort of a grudge toward her brother too as he was the one who sentenced Anne to die..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
12:12 pm
January 3, 2012
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BTW I meant Henry Carey, Mary's boy by the king..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
12:37 pm
July 9, 2009
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Thank you Paudie. I am planning to record the speech and will definitely show you all. I worked with a vocal coach on Anne's accent, and her take on the whole “for a gentler nor a more merciful prince” couple of lines is that Anne was waiting for a pardon to come. She expects soldiers to come rescue her at any second, so she gives them their cue, the perfect line to demonstrate the king's mercy. It is, after all, a performance. The crowd gathered to see a spectacle. Even if she wasn't expecting a pardon, she still would've seen this speech as her last performance, a way to control people's perception of her by dying bravely, as a queen.
About what she said about Mary, if it was said at all, I believe she referred to Mary Tudor. There are sources that claim that Anne gave Lady Kingston instructions to apologize to Mary on her behalf. I think if you look at the relationship between Mary and Anne, Anne lashed out at her out of fear for her own position and Elizabeth's, then would retreat for a while and offer Mary the chance to come back to court. This shows, to me, that she did treat her stepdaughter unfairly (probably putting it mildly) but that she did so out of fear, and probably at the urging of Henry, and felt bad about it. It makes sense that it's one thing she repented of and sincerely wanted to put right at her death. It doesn't make too much sense that she'd be talking about Mary Boleyn. The rivalry between the sisters seems wholly invented by historical fiction authors. Anne simply had to have Mary banished (again, that fear for her own position and security) but still tried to be kind to her, first by taking wardship of her son, then by securing some money for her. It isn't surprising that Mary's family abandoned her-they did the same to Anne and George in May 1536. Anne herself, however, seems to have tried to help her sister however she could.
Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.
2:02 pm
January 3, 2012
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Melissa.. Well put.. It does seem more likely that her “forgive me Mary” bit would have been directed more towards Mary Tudor than her sister Mary. Even Mary Tudor as stern as she was must have felt some compassion for Anne on the day of her death, probably not bodily (if that makes sence) but more from a spiritual standpoint. Although she did refer to Anne as a strumpet.
There is something that actually came to me whilst I was in the bath.. of all places.
Henry Carey, was alledgely Henry V111 child although as we know never acknowledged. He was born in 1526 and lived to 1596..
Now then Henry's acknowledged bastard was Bessie Blount's Son Henry Born 1519 but he was only 17 when he died in 1536.
Henry's heir apparent Edward was born in 1537 and died in 1553.
Doesn't this sound odd? given that both the children Henry actually acknowledged as his were sickly, and didn't live long enough to produce and heir of their own, and yet Mary's child alledgely by Henry lived a long and colourful life dying in the reign of his Cousin Elizabeth..?
Good Luck with your speech, don't get nervous your'll be fine..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
2:08 pm
February 24, 2010
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Melissa, we will be looking forward to seeing the video.
Boleyn,
I had not heard that Mary Boleyn was rushed to marriage because she was pregnant. Hmmm….
I can't figure out what Thomas Boleyn was thinking at the time of his children's trials. He served on the jury that found Weston, Norris, Brereton, and Smeaton guilty, which by doing so condemned his children. I don't know if he was forced to do that or what? Why would he even be called to serve on this jury other than to cause him grief? I don't think he believed the charges at all. He did know they were overwhelming and that his children would be found guilty. He was not on the jury that condemned Anne and George. Maybe they gave him a break. Anne was his favorite and George was his only living son. I can't imagine how he must have felt.
Thomas was stripped of the Privy Seal at the time of the trials. This went to Cromwell. He was removed from the Commission of Peace in Norfolk, but kept that position in Kent. In late 1536 he helped put down the Pilgrimage of Grace. He was in attendance at Edward's christening in 1537. (October) He continued to attend meetings of the Order of the Garter. He remained friends with Cromwell. His diplomat days were at an end. Within months of Elizabeth's death there was talk of him marrying the king's niece, Margaret Douglas. Whether this was a rumor or not, it is an interesting development.
He died at Hever in 1539 and is buried at St Peter's in Hever. It is interesting to note that his wife, Elizabeth was ill in April of 1536 with a bad cough. She passed away near Baynard Castle in April of 1538. She is buried at Lambeth where many Howard women are buried.
Other than killing Thomas, I don't think there was much more that had to be done to finish him off. By destroying Anne and George, the crown handily destroyed the Boleyn family.
2:43 pm
December 5, 2009
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I think the Boleyn sister rivalry has been hugely exaggerated due to TOBG and likewise I have never heard of a rumour that Anne wanted to adopt Henry Carey to have him made heir. I think that stems from PG's imagination.
I think Thomas was called to sit on the jury of the four men and that he did so because he felt he could do nothing to save Anne and George and so he could at least try to save himself. I personally find that hard to accept but there you are. He lost a much loved son and daughter both of whom he surely mourned. He died less than three years after the executions. As for Anne being his favourite, that is pure speculation. He had two extraordinary children, not just one, and there is nothing to say one way or the other whether he had a favourite. He didn't turn against his children, he merely saved himself, and I am certain that, as with the rest of the jury, he did not believe in their guilt.
3:00 pm
February 24, 2010
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Hi Louise,
I stand corrected. Anne being Thomas' favorite is mere speculation on my part. You are right both these children were extraordinary.
As for Thomas, I was only musing. Trying to make excuses for him because I don't understand the attitude of, let the children die, I will do whatever I have to do to stay alive. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt.
