Louise and Sharon,

I know how you both feel. I find it hard to rectify Thomas's actions, since it is clear he loved Anne and George and gave them the best opportunities he could. However, I've learned to position him within the context of his culture, and I find it easier to understand (not necessarily agree with) his actions. He was a product of his time, and saving himself was his best option. I doubt he believed his children to be guilty, but he did not have a choice.

As for Anne and Mary, they had a difficult relationship, for sure. It seems Anne's treatment of Mary (and KOA) was a direct result of her own fear and paranoia. To Anne, they were a legitimate threat to her marriage. Especially after Elizabeth's birth, Anne saw Mary as a threat to her daughter's claim to the throne. It must have been a bitter pill to swallow knowing the people still saw KOA as the rightful Queen and her daughter as heiress presumptive. Regardless of what Anne did, it seems she was fighting a losing battle, and that must have been a constant fear to live with. I don't see Anne as a horrible person. Perhaps a little vindictive, but not a heartless b*tch. Rather a woman terrified of others and their power. Anne's true nature came through in the end. She felt sorry for her treatment of Mary. Perhaps in hindsight she saw the error of her ways.

I often wonder if Mary ever felt sorry for her treatment of Anne. I am not so sure she would (just my opinion). Is there any information to Mary's references to Anne later in life (if she made any)? I don't have a bio on Mary I, so any help would be wonderful. Thanks!

DuchessofBrittany said:

Louise and Sharon,

I know how you both feel. I find it hard to rectify Thomas’s actions, since it is clear he loved Anne and George and gave them the best opportunities he could. However, I’ve learned to position him within the context of his culture, and I find it easier to understand (not necessarily agree with) his actions. He was a product of his time, and saving himself was his best option. I doubt he believed his children to be guilty, but he did not have a choice.

As for Anne and Mary, they had a difficult relationship, for sure. It seems Anne’s treatment of Mary (and KOA) was a direct result of her own fear and paranoia. To Anne, they were a legitimate threat to her marriage. Especially after Elizabeth’s birth, Anne saw Mary as a threat to her daughter’s claim to the throne. It must have been a bitter pill to swallow knowing the people still saw KOA as the rightful Queen and her daughter as heiress presumptive. Regardless of what Anne did, it seems she was fighting a losing battle, and that must have been a constant fear to live with. I don’t see Anne as a horrible person. Perhaps a little vindictive, but not a heartless b*tch. Rather a woman terrified of others and their power. Anne’s true nature came through in the end. She felt sorry for her treatment of Mary. Perhaps in hindsight she saw the error of her ways.

I often wonder if Mary ever felt sorry for her treatment of Anne. I am not so sure she would (just my opinion). Is there any information to Mary’s references to Anne later in life (if she made any)? I don’t have a bio on Mary I, so any help would be wonderful. Thanks!

Yes, Thomas, much like Henry, gives me a headache when I try to figure him out.

Anne may have seeen the error of her ways with Mary, and she tried to reach out a few times to no avail.  I believe she did ask Lady Kingston to ask Mary for forgiveness.  Mary, on the other hand made no such efforts to reconcile with Anne.  Mary blamed Anne for most everything that happened to her.  Even after Anne's death when she realized her father wouldn't have her at court unless she signed the oath, she still blamed Anne.   

A quote from Linda Porter's biography of Mary on the possibility of Elizabeth succeedind her, “The Queen would scruple to allow her to succeed because of her heretical opinions, illegitimacy, and characteristics in which she resembled her mother; and as her mother had caused great trouble in the kingdom, the Queen feared that Elizabeth might do the same particularly that she would imitate her mother in being a French partisan.” 28 November ibid,11, pages 439-440

Porter says Mary never saw Henry in the adult Elizabeth, it was all Anne Boleyn. I couldn't find any other times when Mary mentions Anne; but to me, it seems her treatment of Elizabeth tells more than words can say.  Towards the end of Mary's life, there was a grudging peace between the sisters.  

She named Elizabeth as her successor at the very end of her life.  She never legitimatized Elizabeth.  She did legitimize herself.  Elizabeth left well enough alone.

Correction on my quote info…28 November 1553, ibid 11,pages 439-440

 Simon Renard, Amb. from Spain was a powerful influence on Mary.  He believed that Elizabeth was a great danger to Mary, and he urged her to take decisive action against her sister.  Mary, eventually, did not agree. He played upon Mary's fears.  But she did throw Elizabeth in the Tower.  She was held in the rooms where Anne spent her last days.  Elizabeth was left to worry as to whether or not she would be allowed to live.

Mary was fond of Elizabeth in the beginning.  Having that background helped after they became estranged. Mary was willing to go only so far to punish Elizabeth, while others urged her to be tougher on her.  Mary seems to be the only one who did not see Henry in Elizabeth. 

Sharon said:

Mary seems to be the only one who did not see Henry in Elizabeth. 

She might have resented that Elizabeth, as the daughter of Anne Boleyn, would resemble Henry more than she did. People did comment that Elizabeth looked more like Henry than Mary did, who resembled her mother. I wonder how much her declarations that Elizabeth looked nothing like Henry was an effort to stop people from making the comparison (in her presence, anyway), and how much was self-deception based on her hatred of Anne, and by extension, Elizabeth. Elizabeth resembled her mother in build (thin) and facial features, but resembled her father in coloring and height. Maybe Mary just couldn't get past that when she looked at her sister.

I would love to see you do a take on  “I have but a little neck” also Melissa. I reckon you have that persona within you that Anne possessed.  You lived and studied in England for a while did you not? You will know I do think!

On the Anne, Henry, Mary triangle, there are human elements and the opinion of court and beyond to consider. Anne broke the “never with my sisters lover”, golden rule.  Albeit by Royal command, she needed to move the pieces around the chessboard that was court, carefully! Having Mary out of court with no likelihood of a return was one less worry. In Kelly Hart’s book “The Mistresses of Henry VIII” she makes the point that Mary Carey (Boleyn) was already married when she became Lady in waiting to Catherine of Aragon. However I too believe that Henry Carey was the son of the King. (an interesting blood line to follow)

There are many side shows on what happened between Anne and Henry, like Henry’s jousting accident and coma that led to a profound attitude change and also that Anne’s still born child was Spina bifida, which would have looked grotesque to the Tudor people and how could a King as Henry be the father of such a child? Obviously witchcraft had a part to play and gene pools were not understood back then.

What ever happened between Anne and Henry, it was final and Anne knew it.  After all, it is what she signed up for and knew how it worked after seven years by Henry’s side. Her speech defines her and every word was carefully chosen. Since I was in school and first read the speech, I get goose bumps thinking of the way Anne went to her death with dignity. Don’t forget to pray for Anne as she asked anyone who would “meddle in her cause.”

Sharon said:

I think it was both looks and personality that would have bugged Mary.  Elizabeth was Anne's daughter, and Mary believed Anne had made her life a living hell. She made herself believe that Elizabeth had no physical resemblance to Henry, and she didn't want anyone else believing it either.  She would not credit Elizabeth with any of Henry's traits.  Many saw Henry in Elizabeth's personality.  Mary would have dismissed any connection, whether it was looks or personality.  What made it worse was that Elizabeth did resemble her father in looks and she did have his personality.  Mary knew that.  For Mary, Elizabeth was a constant reminder of the suffering she had endured in her youth, due to Elizabeth's mother, and she could not get past it. 

Didn't Mary claim that Elizabeth resembled Mark Smeaton?

The author, Ella March Chase, claims that Mary questioned Elizabeth's paternity throughout her life, stating that she looked like Mark Smeaton. She does not however cite any reference or source for this statement.

I knew I had read it somewhere.  Upon further digging, I found this in “Elizabeth”, by Anne Somerset.  

“…her antagonism towards her sister was only sharpened by the fact that Elizabeth had many “characteristics in which she resembled her mother.”  To make matters worse, Mary did not accept that the blood tie between them entitled Elizabeth to count on her indulgence, preferring to believe that no such bond existed, and that Henry had not fathered Elizabeth in the first place.  To her intimates, Mary was in the habit of remarking that Elizabeth “had the face and countenance of Mark Smeaton, who was a very handsome man.”  This was unworthy of the Queen for unbiased observers reported that Elizabeth resembled Henry VIII more closely than Mary did herself.”  page 33 of Elizabeth I

Seems to me it was Mary's bitterness and insecurities that made her say this stuff. 

Anne was said to have had a marked French accent, not sure of the source. Geneviève Bujold had a similar accent to how I image Anne sounding.