4:55 pm
April 9, 2011
Today it is pretty much unanimous that Anne was innocent of all the charges she was found guilty of, as were the man found guilty along with her. I'm wondering were there people at the time of Anne's execution that firmly believed that an innocnet lady and Queen was being executed for crimes she didn't commit. I imagine there would have been general public that thought it, but was there anybody from the court that felt she was a victim of a conspiracy to help Henry get a new breed mare. I imagine the fear of being charged with treason would have kept many to keep their opinion to themselves.
5:10 pm
March 9, 2011
Bill1978 said:
Today it is pretty much unanimous that Anne was innocent of all the charges she was found guilty of, as were the man found guilty along with her. I'm wondering were there people at the time of Anne's execution that firmly believed that an innocnet lady and Queen was being executed for crimes she didn't commit. I imagine there would have been general public that thought it, but was there anybody from the court that felt she was a victim of a conspiracy to help Henry get a new breed mare. I imagine the fear of being charged with treason would have kept many to keep their opinion to themselves.
I think everybody with a brain saw the show trial and the execution for what it was. Truly, I can't say Anne wasn't guilty. I can say with certainty the evidence offered by the court did not prove her guilt.
I believe both Cranmer and Chapuys expressed doubt concerning the trial and its sentence.
6:02 pm
April 9, 2011
I can say with certainty the evidence offered by the court did not prove her guilt
Interesting thought there. Because if with today 's eyes the evidence has so many holes in it, why then did the lords all say she was guilty. It sounds like they were all gotten to before the trial. I would be interested to know if any of the people who said guilty came out afterwards and said they had their doubts because of the evidence.
Did Cranmer and Chapuys express their concerns before of after the execution?
6:57 pm
March 9, 2011
Bill1978 said:
I can say with certainty the evidence offered by the court did not prove her guilt
Interesting thought there. Because if with today 's eyes the evidence has so many holes in it, why then did the lords all say she was guilty. It sounds like they were all gotten to before the trial. I would be interested to know if any of the people who said guilty came out afterwards and said they had their doubts because of the evidence.
Did Cranmer and Chapuys express their concerns before of after the execution?
I'm a tad blind when addressing legal questions in English law which operates on a common law system. Henry and his legislators basically passed laws necessary to establish Anne's guilt.
A jury's decision must be based upon the definitions of various laws and their knowledge of the facts (supported by evidence.) I'm not sure if the Lords judging Anne even understood the definitions of the crimes of which she was accused. Even if they did understand the definitions, their acceptance of the so-called evidence indicates extremely poor judgment.
Most important, Anne's jury was far from impartial. Their purpose was not to consider evidence and judge Anne's guilt or lack of guilt. Their purpose was to serve their king (Anne's husband.)
If I was Anne's counsel, I would immediately move for an international court trial on the grounds that English subjects owed her husband loyalty and would inevitably find in the king's favor. I don't know if legal provisions were available for that, but if they were I'd try. From there, I'd negotiate with whatever counsel represented Henry/England on Anne's behalf. I don't think Henry would want to go through another lengthy trial, he might have been willing to settle Anne with something — pension her and her daughter off, so to speak — in exchange for not contesting an anullment based on his affinity complaint.
I don't believe an impartial jury would ever find Anne guilty in today's legal system.
I believe Anyanka cited a letter Chapuys sent Charles suggesting his doubts of Anne's guilt. I consider this very telling, although it does not prove Anne's guilt or innocence. Chapuys loathed Anne, but he was also an attorney. That he questionned the credibility of the case against Anne suggests the case was quite weak. My opinion, for what it's worth.
7:28 pm
October 31, 2010
1) No one in that jury pool was EVER going to come out and admit that they voted the way the King wanted them to vote. Even Henry Percy found Anne guilty, though I think he was visibly ill about it. The jury was going to find Anne guilty because that was the way Henry wanted it.
2) I think that certain people within the King's inner circle–especially people like Cromwell–KNEW Anne was innocent. Henry made it clear that he wanted rid of Anne and he was NOT going to go through another Great Matter to gain a divorce from her like he did with Katherine. Let's be honest, Henry knew the easiest way to get rid of Anne was for her to be dead, and I don't know that Anne would have gone quietly if he'd sought a divorce. It wasn't hard for them to create the charges against her.
3) Chapuys, Anne's least-ardant supporter, even recognized that the trial was a sham.
"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"
8:46 pm
April 9, 2011
I guess too if the day before they found 4 men guilty of adultery with the Queen, you really can't find the Queen not guilty the next day. So you've really got to follow the precedent you set for yourself. Just like how there was no way George could be proven innocent of the incest charge after Anne was found guilty of it.
But even then, you get the sitiation where based upon the 'evidence' and the verdicts. You end up with 3 guilty parties (Smeaton and his so called confession, Anne because Smeaton's confession made him guilty and George because Anne was found guilty of incest) and 3 innocent men (who appeared to have been found guilty due to association with Smeaton really)
Did Anne even have counsel? I admit the only representation of have of her courtcase is from The Other Boleyn Girl (Portman version) and she appears to have represented herself.
9:32 pm
October 31, 2010
I think the other men who were executed were considered guilty by association. I think, during the interrogations, someone (one of Anne's ladies?) probably mentioned their names. The men, of course, were rounded up and I'm sure tortured. And, for some reason, people thought that confessions made under torture were valid.
Once you had all these men confessing to have slept with the queen, then that was pretty much all that was needed.
I highly doubt that Anne had any kind of council. I certainly don't recall Starkey making any mention of it in The Six Wives, though I could be wrong.
"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"
10:08 pm
April 9, 2011
I thought only Smeaton was tortured because he was the only non-noble out of them. And apparently there was a rule that said you don't torture nobles. See they did have a heart in Tudor times :-p And the way the men's executions are represented in The Tudors support the idea that only Smeaton was tortured. While the other 4 men, llo like they've just got out of bed, Smeaton is swollen and bruised.
And, for some reason, people thought that confessions made under torture were valid
I always found this silly, cause really you are going to say want your torturers want to hear, just so the pain will stop. I won't even pretend and say I could hold out. I'd probably collapse at the mere mention of the word 'torture' and tell them want they want to here. Considering Smeaton was just a 'lowly' musician, no wonder he said he slept with the Queen. Unfortunately as soon as he said that, Anne was doomed and a fair trial was never going to happen.
5:27 am
October 12, 2010
Didn't Henry order Anne's executioner prior to the conclusion of the trial? If that doesn't say 'foregone conclusion', I don't know what does.
I think, especially after her death, a lot of people saw the trial for what it was – a complete sham. As previously pointed out, even Chapuys doubted her guilt.
5:47 am
December 5, 2009
I am an English lawyer, albeit not a criminal one (maybe I should rephrase that). Anyway, guilty must be established 'beyond a reasonable doubt' before a jury can convict. Whichever way you look at it there had to be a reasonable doubt of guilt in Anne's case. Yet her own father found her guilty by sitting on the jury of the four commoners and finding them guilty. Despite that I doubt strongly that Thomas Boleyn believed his daughter was guilty. A finding of guilt and a genuine belief in it are very different concepts. I think any jury member brave enough to have found Anne, George and the rest innocent would have had a very limited career and/or lifespan.
7:31 am
October 31, 2010
@ Bill-I think you're right. It was illegal to torture nobles. But there are other forms of torture that are not physical. I'm certain the torturers were just as skilled at psychological torture as physical torture. I mean, at some point, those nobles had to admit their guilt in order for it to be used against Anne at her trial. Something had to make them admit to it if they weren't truly guilty.
"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"
8:02 am
December 5, 2009
8:39 am
November 18, 2010
http://englishhistory.net/tudo…..anne2.html
Chapuys letter
Although everybody rejoices at the execution of the wh*re there are
some who murmur at the mode of procedure against her and the others, and
people speak variously of the king; and it will not pacify the world when
it is known what has passed and is passing between him and Jane Seymour.
Already it sounds ill in the ears of the people, that the king, having
received such ignominy, has shown himself more glad than ever since the
arrest of the wh*re; for he has been going about banqueting with ladies,
sometimes remaining after midnight, and returning by the river.
It's always bunnies.
9:31 am
February 24, 2010
Info from Ives:
Smeton confessed to adultery, but pleaded not guilty to the rest of the charge. (treason) Norris, Weston, and Brereton plead not guilty to all charges. BTW, to have intercourse with a Queen who consented was no crime at common law-ill advised, but punishable only by the Church courts as an affront to morality.
There was no defense council-it was not allowed. “Crown prosecuters determined not so much to present the gov't case as to secure a conviction by fair questions or foul.” “As the jurymen were called into the court, Norris and the others knew their fate was sealed. Cromwell had preselected a hostile panel as could be imagined.” Thomas Boleyn served on the jury which condemned the four men. By doing so, he condemned his daughter and his son.
Wriothesley who was not an Anne supporter, said of her testimony, “She made so wise and discreet answers to all things laid against her, excusing herself with words so clearly as though she had never been faulty to the same.” She kept the sympathy of the onlookers, but not of the jury, as it deliberated under the watchful eye of the Duke of Suffolk. – De Carles. Northumberland collapsed after he gave his guilty verdict. Not sure what this shows. He was a sick man to begin with.
Then it was George's turn. He plead not guilty. He used intellect and wit to crumble the royal case to dust. Again the audience was with him. “The odds ran 10-1 that he would be acquitted,” Chapuys. Not so among the peers. He was found guilty. For the second time in a day Norfolk condemned a family member.
It is not known how Smeton's confession was obtained. It may be he was promised pardon as was Norris if he confessed. Psychological pressure was more than likely used. By the time Smeton arrived at the Tower he had already given a confession to Cromwell. Or Cromwell used that knotted rope. Smeton admitted to adultery. “Norris denied that he knew anything of the musicians adultery was the conclusion drawn that the groom of the stool must have been involved as well.” Apparently, Smeton's confession turned the denials of Anne, Norris, and later Rchford into evidence of guilt.
For what it is worth, Chapuys did not believe in Anne's guilt-“condemned on presumption and not evidence, without any witnesses or valid confession,” was his conclusion.
The swordsman was from Calais and was sent for before the trials began.
10:18 am
November 18, 2010
Henry wrote to Jane regarding a ballard being soung about them.
With Anne safely in the Tower, Henry cheerfully persued his courtship of Jane Seymour, who had moved from Greenwich to Sir Nicholas Carew's house in Beddington. In the days that followed, the king visited her so openly and so frequently that a public sympathy for Anne, rare during her reign, began to emerge.So overt was this sympathy that Henry felt obliged to warn Jane about it.He sent a letter telling that “there is a ballard made lately of great derision against us, which if it will go abroad and is seen by you, I pray you pay no manner of regard to it.” He promised to to search for the author of the “maliganant writing” and punish him severly.
Divorced, beheaded, survived by Karen Lindsey (page 124)
It's always bunnies.
1:45 pm
June 1, 2010
In those days the King was the law. Every man on that jury knew what was expected of them, and that was the verdict that best pleased the King. If Henry was openly courting Jane Seymour there could be only one possible outcome to the trial. Imagine what would have happened to any juror who found Anne not guilty! Whatever they privately thought about Anne's guilt or lack of it, they would not risk trading places with her and who could really blame them?