2:58 pm
January 3, 2012
We all know that Anne was sent back to Hever when her marriage schemes to Henry Percy became known.
Who told Wolsey about them?
I’m reading a book at the moment that seems to imply that Jane Boleyn (Anne’s sister in law) dobbed her in.
Any ideas folks and why was marriage between Henry Percy and Anne given the big elbow.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
4:18 pm
November 18, 2010
Percy was already bethrothed to Mary Talbot so that was one problem. Plus Thomas Boleyn was in the process of trying to tie up the marriage of Anne and James Butler which was another one.
That and they had decided to marry without asking the king first..
Did Jane tell on them? Jane hadn’t married George at that time so that couldn’t be a reason. Though some people like to blame Jane for everything that went wrong in anne’s life.
It's always bunnies.
7:48 pm
February 24, 2010
Percy would visit the Queen’s chamber every afternoon to see Anne. Henry may have seen it for himself. According to George Cavendish, who worked for Wolsey, Henry found out that Anne and Percy were in love and were planning to wed. Henry went to Wolsey and asked him to intervene. Cavendish says it was because Henry was ‘much offended’ and had ‘secret affection’ for Anne. That is why he had Wolsey move to break them up. This seems to be disputed by historians, but if Cavendish is correct, Henry was enamoured with Anne by 1523.
Poor Jane. She seems to take the blame for what Henry did to Anne from beginning to end.
11:36 am
January 3, 2012
Sharon said
Percy would visit the Queen’s chamber every afternoon to see Anne. Henry may have seen it for himself. According to George Cavendish, who worked for Wolsey, Henry found out that Anne and Percy were in love and were planning to wed. Henry went to Wolsey and asked him to intervene. Cavendish says it was because Henry was ‘much offended’ and had ‘secret affection’ for Anne. That is why he had Wolsey move to break them up. This seems to be disputed by historians, but if Cavendish is correct, Henry was enamoured with Anne by 1523.
Poor Jane. She seems to take the blame for what Henry did to Anne from beginning to end.
Yes it does seem as if poor Jane was blamed for everything doesn’t it. I actually wonder whether the marriage idea was stamped on because Anne and Henry. P had dared to arrange matters about it themselves. Lard boy didn’t like the idea that one of his subjects was doing something without his approval and told Wolsey to do something about it.
Doesn’t that make Henry8 seem very hypocrital. His dignity was affronted because one of his subjects dared to do something without his permission, but then lard boy saying to hell with his subjects I want Anne and by thunder I’m going to have her.
A sort of “if I can’t have her then no one can” situation.
And yet the marriage plans between Henry P and Anne weren’t bad. Ok Anne was a humble knights daughter and Percy and Earl in waiting, but was that so bad. Anne’s mother was the daughter of the house of Howard, and yet it was considered ok for her to marry a humble knight, so what was wrong with Anne marrying into the house of Percy?
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
7:21 pm
February 24, 2010
Actually Anne and Percy had no right to plan a wedding for themselves. Neither of their parents knew about it, or at least neither of their parents were actively working toward a marriage for them. Parents negotiated marriages for their children. They didn’t get to choose. Thomas Boleyn was still trying to gain a contract for Anne’s marriage to Ormond. Percy had been bethrothed to Mary Talbot for 6 years. His father was furious with him.
Henry could step into any one of his noble’s marriage negotiations. However, it does seem as though this interference was personal. Wolsey according to Cavendish, berated Percy for thinking to raise a knight’s daughter so high. Percy thought she had a good enough background and said so. Wolsey then told Percy that the king had other plans for Anne. (Oh, okay then. Why didn’t you just say that in the first place? ) Percy gave in.
4:57 pm
January 3, 2012
Sharon said
Actually Anne and Percy had no right to plan a wedding for themselves. Neither of their parents knew about it, or at least neither of their parents were actively working toward a marriage for them. Parents negotiated marriages for their children. They didn’t get to choose. Thomas Boleyn was still trying to gain a contract for Anne’s marriage to Ormond. Percy had been bethrothed to Mary Talbot for 6 years. His father was furious with him.
Henry could step into any one of his noble’s marriage negotiations. However, it does seem as though this interference was personal. Wolsey according to Cavendish, berated Percy for thinking to raise a knight’s daughter so high. Percy thought she had a good enough background and said so. Wolsey then told Percy that the king had other plans for Anne. (Oh, okay then. Why didn’t you just say that in the first place? ) Percy gave in.
I suppose the alleged words that lard boy used when he was shackled to Anne of Cleves, were in someway descriptive of the whole idea of marriages between the nobility.
“Poor men may choose their wives, why I get lumbered with Anne of Cleves (there is no evidence he called a flanders mare) Whatever Henry was or wasn’t he did play fair by Anne of cleves, he may not of liked her but he did show her respect.
Yeah I know Wolsey sent for Percy’s father who came down on poor Henry like a tonne of Bricks. Wolsey said The king has other plans for Anne does that mean that he had already decided he wanted her for himself as mistress.? But it still doesn’t make it right that their marriage was vetoed ok they shouldn’t have taken the law into their own hands so to speak, but if lard boy was only seeing Anne at that time as a protential mistress what was wrong with her marrying Percy?
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
6:22 pm
February 24, 2010
Boleyn said
Yeah I know Wolsey sent for Percy’s father who came down on poor Henry like a tonne of Bricks. Wolsey said The king has other plans for Anne does that mean that he had already decided he wanted her for himself as mistress.? But it still doesn’t make it right that their marriage was vetoed ok they shouldn’t have taken the law into their own hands so to speak, but if lard boy was only seeing Anne at that time as a protential mistress what was wrong with her marrying Percy?
Here is what Cavendish writes about what Wolsey said to Percy:
“The king’s majesty himself will complain to thy father on thee, and require no less at his hand than I have said; whose highness intended to have preferred Anne Boleyn unto another person, with whom the king hath travelled already, and being at a point with the same person, although she knoweth it not, yet hath the king, most like a politic and prudent prince, conveyed the matter in such sort, that she, upon the king’s motion, will be (I doubt not) right glad and agreeable to the same.”
Wow, Cavendish writes run-on sentences like Sarah Palin speaks them!
Whether Wolsey was making this up or whether there was a match that Henry had in mind, I don’t know. I suppose Wolsey could be talking about Ormond. I don’t think Wolsey was telling him the king wanted Anne and that’s why Percy couldn’t have her.
One reason I can come up with as to why Anne and Percy were not allowed to marry was the king said no! Another is, who did these two young people think they were that they could defy their parents and marry someone of their own choosing? Even if they were well matched it doesn’t matter. Defying your parents was not done.
I don’t know what would have happened if Henry didn’t find out about this. Most likely they would have married secretly and Lord Percy would have disinherited his son. These two young people would have ended up in disgrace.
11:33 am
January 3, 2012
I have a freind who is directly decended from the Dukes of Northumberland. In short he is a Percy. Anyway he recently went to Scotland for a holiday visiting Kith and Kin up there, and one of the things he did, was call into Alnwick Castle, anyway when he went to the gate to pay to go in, he mentioned to the ticket seller that he was a Percy and showed him his driving licence, not only did he get in for free he also got shown bit of the castle that aren’t open to members of the public and met some of the Percy Family too. Lucky so and so.
On the way back he called in to a cafe which was called Percy’s cafe and said much the same there but he didn’t get his meal for free. LOL.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
12:31 pm
June 3, 2013
probably worth taking the personal out of it – its probably jealousy on HVIII’s part, but its also proper politics: the Percy’s at this point own most of England north of the Humber, they are the first family of the North, and since the destruction of the Nevilles in the WotR they have no rivals – they are, in effect, certainly equally as powerful as the King in there home territories, if they back a war against Scotland that war succeeds, if they don’t it goes nowhere, if they back a rebellion or sit on the fence, then the King is in very deep trouble. Boleyn is a member of the House of Norfolk who are, coincidentally, in the top 5 wealthiest and most powerful families in England at the time.
there was bad blood between the Percys and the Howards from the Wars of the Roses, and such a marriage (though Anne herself was somewhat lower in status than Henry Percy, which doubtless would have upset the wider Percy clan..) would have secured an alliance between two very rich, very influential, and very, very old astistocratic families who made the Tudors look like something from a reality TV show. in banning such a marriage, Henry VIII may well be playing the jealous would-be-sutor, but he’s also avoiding a match between two families that together are probably as rich, and as powerful as the Crown.
2:55 am
December 5, 2013
10:41 am
January 3, 2012
Mandi Jeanne. I don’t think Mary knew anything about Anne and Percy. In fact I don’t think she was even at court at that time. After H8 had made his interests known in Anne, I some how think that having a former love at court would have been a little bit difficult. I rather think that once H8 had had enough of Mary was sent off to live with her husband out of the way. Granted Mary did come to court, but i don’t think she was there during Anne/Percy courtship.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
5:52 pm
February 24, 2010
11:24 pm
January 3, 2012
According to wiki (not really a trustworthy source, but handy I suppose) It is believed that Mary and lard arse affair started around 1521, with Catherine being born 1524 and Henry in 1526 although Lard Arse had by then taken an interest in Anne. I agree it’s possible that Mary could have seen Percy and Anne around together, and as you say so could a lot of others.. I don’t think Mary dobbed her sister in it wouldn’t have gained anything.. I rather think that no one really believed that Anne and Percy affair was anything more than a game of courtly love, but when it was realised it was more than that. Then of course Lard arse dropped a tonne of bricks on Wolsey. Wolsey dropped a tonne of bricks on Percy and Percy’s dad dropped a tonne of bricks on Percy too. I wonder when Henry started to really persue Anne. I’m inclined to think it was around February or perhaps March when Mary had Henry Junior. the earlist Mary would have been out of confinement was the end of April I think, and I think by then Henry had made it known that he was salivating over Anne. I think that after Percy’s father had come down bent his son’s ear he dragged him back to Northumberland bricks and all by the summer. Exit stage left Percy.
Certainly I think a lot of it was more to that old Lard arse couldn’t stand the thought of one of his minions (Percy) having something he wanted.
I have read somewhere some time back that Percy ‘s betrothal was supposed to have been cancelled, after Mary Talbot made it clear she wasn’t happy with the arrangement.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
1:44 am
November 18, 2010
Certainly Mary Talbot tried to have the marriage annuled since Henry was pre-contracted to Anne. However as this was after Henry VIII was serious about Anne…IIRC round 1531/32, Cromwell interviewed Percy and discovered that there was no pre-contract.
This blew up again in 15336 when Cromwell tried to get Percy to admit there had been a pre-contract…Percy refused to admit to one again!
It's always bunnies.
11:02 am
January 3, 2012
Thank you Anyanka. I knew Mary Talbot tried to upset the apple cart before Anne and Lard arse were married and I’m not too sure if the idea reared it’s ugly head again in 1536 when Lard Arse wanted shot of Anne.
From what I remember in the book Mary wasn’t happy when she and Percy were first betrothed, and because of the situation, Northumberland and Talbot, called the idea of a marriage between them off and Mary went home to her family.
I wonder what would have happened if Percy did admit to a pre-contract? Would Anne of lived?
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
8:08 pm
November 18, 2010
Definately Percy was asked in May 1536 by Cromwelll if there was a pre-contract and Percy refused to admit that there was one. Guess he was tireed of being bullied over the subject.
I seriously doubt if Anne would have lived following any disclosure of a pre-contract. Henry wanted rid of Anne…no IF’s, no BUTs…gone. He knew the problems of having an ex-wife cluttering up his peace of mind. And since the death of his wives would leave him a widower without any pesky legal problems in getting re-married, then death was the only answer to the problem of Anne.
Henry and Jane had no impediments to a successful marriage and all was well in Henry’s world.
It's always bunnies.
8:53 pm
January 3, 2012
I agree Anyanka,
But it does seem strange that Lard Arse was happy with AOC hanging about the place (well away from court anyway, but alive none the less) when he married K.H.
Granted the marriage was annuled after 6 months but the fact still remains that he had done the old I do and I now declare them with AOC and the man in the pointy hat waving his arms about bit.
The marriage existed, no matter what Lard Arse told Cramner to say otherwise. Why else did Lard Arse give her such a pay off. He could have just sent her packing back to Cleves, but instead he brought her off.
I can see your point about Jane, espcially as she gave him a son.. If Anne B had still been around, even better if KOA had still been around too, (Now there would be a cat fight from hell. KOA, AB and J.s all ready with handbags at dawn to fight over whose child soon inherit) He would want nothing to spoil the chance of his son inheriting. So yes Anne B had to die, but in the end nothing changed Elizabeth did inherit as did Mary and Lard Arse acheived nothing.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
3:42 pm
October 28, 2011
5:21 pm
January 3, 2012
Olga said
Anne of Cleves was a foreign princess, like KOA, Henry couldn’t lay a finger on her. The two wives that he executed were his own subjects, he could do what he liked without fear of retaliation. He had to pay her off, and contrary to popular belief, she was not happy about it.
She must have felt terribly embarrassed by it if you think about it. As with one foul stroke, Lard Arse managed to wreck her chances of ever finding another husband, even if she wanted to.
I always thought she was ok with the deal of the annulment. I know she was unhappy about Lard arse marrying K.P as she felt that K.P was lower class (loosely worded) But even so I have a lot of respect for Anne as she did by careful diplomancy and tact in dealing with the situation of annulment by making sure she didn’t end up on the scrap heap as KOA did. She did well out of the marriage. Happy or not at least she survived.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
6:41 pm
February 24, 2010
I think Anne was satisfied with the terms of the annulment. She gained properties and monies, and Henry didn’t want to kill her. That must have been a load off her mind. However, she must have been mortified by the whole thing. She came to England believing she was going to be queen. What a humiliating experience it must have been for her to be set aside. Later on when Henry was going to marry again, she must have felt that she was the best candidate to be his wife. And she may have been right, but once again Henry snubbed her.