Thomas had no where else to go.  He clung to what he knew.  He had spent his entire career at court at Henry's beck and call.  IMO, Henry actually liked Thomas and wanted him close.

Thomas did eventually allow Mary and her husband to live at Rochford Hall. 

I don't believe Jane was quite as instrumental in Anne and George's downfall as has been previously believed.  She was interrogated by Cromwell, and eventually told him that she had spoken to her husband about Henry's inability to perform sexually. Cromwell handed George this information in written form at his trial and asked him not read it out loud.  George read it so everyone could hear.

 Through the help of Cromwell, Jane was given her jointure.  By the time KH came around, Jane had made her own career moves. She had served both Jane, and Anne of Cleves. She had money coming in from rents.  She could have retired to the country, but she preferred court life.  Jane did not instigate the relationship between Culpeper and Katherine. The two of them did that.  However, she did end up being the go-between.  Both Katherine and Culpeper blamed her for their affair.

I don't know why Katherine had Joan Blumer with her. Maybe she trusted the girl. Or she was going with the theory, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.  If I'm not mistaken, Katherine's grandmother asked her to bring Dereham in.

I saw a question by someone earlier about Catherine Carey and if she was close to Elizabeth.  She was.  Her husband and their family went into exile when Mary took the throne.  When Elizabeth became queen, they returned.  They were held in high regard by Elizabeth.  Catherine became her Chief Lady of the Bedchamber. 

Sharon said:

I don't believe Jane was quite as instrumental in Anne and George's downfall as has been previously believed.  She was interrogated by Cromwell, and eventually told him that she had spoken to her husband about Henry's inability to perform sexually. Cromwell handed George this information in written form at his trial and asked him not read it out loud.  George read it so everyone could hear.

 Through the help of Cromwell, Jane was given her jointure.  By the time KH came around, Jane had made her own career moves. She had served both Jane, and Anne of Cleves. She had money coming in from rents.  She could have retired to the country, but she preferred court life.

Jane had been at court for many years before Anne had attracted Henry. she was one of the ladies who danced at the famous Chateau Verte alongside Mary Tudor, Bessie Blount and the Boleyn sisters.

She started her court career as one of KoA's ladies before marrying George. She spent the majority of her adult life at court, apart from when Henry sent her packing for aiding Anne in removing his then current amour.

Jane then  served both Jane Seymour  and Anne of Cleves before transferring to Kathryn Howard's service.

Jane was in a tricky situation…Telling the king could have got Jane thrown in prison for bearing false witness given how devoted Henry was at first or thrown in prison for “misprison of treason”, ie not telling what was going on…And that was before disobeying the queen…

She really was caught btween a rock and a hard place..Plus there were people who were prepared to believe that she threw both her husband and sister in law to their deaths even though they were innocent.

So it wasn't easy to imagine Jane as a Circe around whom evil spread.

Sharon said “Culpeper and Katherine. The two of them did that.  However, she did end up being the go-between.  Both Katherine and Culpeper blamed her for their affair.”

Good point Sharon.. Me thinks you like taxing everyone's noggin every so often, LOL..

But actually now I've had a good think about it, I have to ask why Catherine and Culpepper blame Jane Rochford?

Again it begs the question: Did Catherine seriously believe that in laying the blame elsewhere for her naughty behaviour elsewhere that Henry would have shown some kindness (for want of a better word) and simply let Catherine and Culpepper go, maybe into exile with each other and smply airbrush everthing and anything to do with her marriage to the king?

Poor Jane does seem to come across, by what Sharon has said, to have been very hapless and perhaps a much misinterperted person. 

Perhaps Henry might have even considered this if the Derham affair hadn't reared it's ugly head. We know very little of Catherine's childhood or to what actually went on within the Duchess's household during Catherine's years there..

But we do know that she did have some sort of romance with Mannox although I don't believe it was of a sexual nature. I think that he basically fondled her in a sexually suggestive way, and she simply tinkered with him, I believe that when the Duchess found out she beat both Mannox and Catherine, and Mannox was sent away from the household, although Catherine still continued to meet with Mannox, for a short while after as he was employed by the Duchess's neighbour I believe. Now that in itself is strange too as in order to get another position in a good household Mannox would have needed a letter of recommendation from his previous employer, ie the Duchess, so the Duchess herself must have lied on this letter of recommendation to allow Mannox to get another position.. Why did the Duchess lie? We know that this relationship with Mannox ended or had at least started to fizzle out after 1 Derham appeared on the scene and 2. Mannox let slip to Joan Bulmer, that his intentions to Catherine were entirely dishonourable, which then of course Joan Bulmer to Catherine..

Now then we know that there was a love affair between Derham and Catherine, but was it of a sexual nature and was there actually a pre-contact, I read in one book that Catherine had consulted her elder sister about any forms of birth control she might know of, and her sister said she had found that half a lemon was quite effective in preventing another pregancy, so soon after the birth of her first child. Did Catherine in point of fact use this method therefore believing that she was still a virgin when she married the King, because she used her sister's suggestion thus believing that if she had penetrive sex with Derham the lemon saved her virginity, because sex was only sex if you conceived a child. I hope that makes sence.. Certainly I believe there was some form of agreement between Derham and Catherine, but was it of a surficient a nature to be considered a pre-contact? Certainly Derham did shower Catherine with gifts, and left her a little money when he went of to Ireland on a mission for the Duchess.

Which brings me back to the Duchess. She is alledgely supposed to have caught Derham and Catherine in a compromising position, and again gave Catherine a boot up the bum, but instead of sacking Derham she sent him off to Ireland of some damn fool mission with a flea in his ear. Some sources state that he wanted to go to Ireland and make his fortune and was saying goodbye to Catherine when caught by the Duchess. ok I'll buy that.

But surely the Duchess wasn't so thick to realise that there was something more than just freindship between Catherine and Derham. The Duchess herself walked in on one of the bedroom midnight feast and saw what went on there, so again she must have been aware that there might have been something more, than just chatter and strawberries.. I'm not sure but I believe Mary Lasselle actually told the Duchess that she didn't like what was going on in the chamber at night and that there were a lot of noises coming from Catherine's bed that weren't normal.

So why didn't the Duchess investigate further or more to the point keep Catherine close to her so that these strange noises could be nothing more than snores or the occational groan and a shifting of the body into a different position.

But when the Duke of Norfolk decided to use Catherine for his own ends why did the Duchess lie to him about Catherine's virtue? Did she think that as old as she was, that Catherine might have given her a place in her household? I think she held a position in Anne's household? Perhaps she had hoped for some favour to be thrown her way, as it's clear from what we are led to believe that any comforts in the Duchess's household was sparce to the point of being non existant, and what little food there was, was often inedible, which is probably why Catherine and the rest of the maids in the household were grateful for the little titbits Derham and his freinds brought them each night.

Why then when Derham returned from Ireland, to find Catherine married to the King, why did the Duchess write a letter of recommendation to Catherine for Derham to be allowed to serve her, now she was Queen. Surely the Duchess would have known what a hornets nest she would be stirring up, wouldn't it have been better for Catherine, for the Duchess to keep Derham in her own household and then let him meet with an accident, along the way. Then perhaps Catherine maybe could have kept her head and gone into exile with Culpepper?

Which brings me back to Jane Rochford. Why blame her? Perhaps she was being blackmailed by Catherine or the Duke of Norfolk, or maybe even Culpepper to help aid their affair? Either way poor Jane was basically the pigeon among a load of cats. We know that Jane went do-dally when the whole sorry affair between Catherine and Culpepper came out, but I wonder if she was faking it, she knew that a criminal who was do-dally couldn't be put on trial or be executed, so maybe by faking lunacy she hoped to spare her life? When she was told she was going to die anyway, for the last few days of her life she did seem to recover her wits and her reason enough to make confession. When she went to the scaffold the poor woman was made to kneel in Catherine's Blood.  

Boleyn said:

But actually now I've had a good think about it, I have to ask why Catherine and Culpepper blame Jane Rochford?

Again it begs the question: Did Catherine seriously believe that in laying the blame elsewhere for her naughty behaviour elsewhere that Henry would have shown some kindness (for want of a better word) and simply let Catherine and Culpepper go, maybe into exile with each other and smply airbrush everthing and anything to do with her marriage to the king?  Poor Jane does seem to come across, by what Sharon has said, to have been very hapless and perhaps a much misinterperted person

Hi Boleyn,

I hope you don’t mind if I answer piece meal here.  I don’t know how to break it down in one shot.

I think they blamed Jane in hopes of being allowed to live.  Although Culpepper, being the older of the two, and having served Henry during the Anne debacle, should have known that an excuse like, ‘it was Jane’s fault’ was not going to win his freedom.  When I read Katherine’s testimony, all I can think is that she’s such a teenager.  Nothing was ever her fault.  I know she was between 19 and 21, but she comes across as much younger.  They not only blamed Jane, they also pointed the finger at each other.  It seems Katherine thought that if she could lay the blame elsewhere, Henry would induldge her as he always did and forgive his rose without a thorn! 

 Jane was certainly more involved in this matter than she was in the previous mess. She was involved in finding these two places to meet,  she delivered messages and tokens between them, and she made sure they were undisturbed during their trysts.  When it came time for her to testify, in yet another trial of a queen, she told the truth.  Hey, she wasn’t arrested for her testimony in the trial of her husband and sister-in-law, why would she think she would be punished for telling the truth in this affair?  She totally misjudged Henry’s reaction.  They all did.  Henry had been looking for a way to be rid of Anne.  He was hurt and humiliated by Katherine.

Boleyn said:

Now then we know that there was a love affair between Derham and Catherine, but was it of a sexual nature and was there actually a pre-contact, I read in one book that Catherine had consulted her elder sister about any forms of birth control she might know of, and her sister said she had found that half a lemon was quite effective in preventing another pregancy, so soon after the birth of her first child. Did Catherine in point of fact use this method therefore believing that she was still a virgin when she married the King, because she used her sister's suggestion thus believing that if she had penetrive sex with Derham the lemon saved her virginity, because sex was only sex if you conceived a child. I hope that makes sence.. Certainly I believe there was some form of agreement between Derham and Catherine, but was it of a surficient a nature to be considered a pre-contact? Certainly Derham did shower Catherine with gifts, and left her a little money when he went of to Ireland on a mission for the Duchess.

I believe it was Katherine’s testimony that she knew how to prevent pregnancy.  Could she have been that stupid as to believe she was a virgin even if she had intercourse but was using birth control and didn’t get pregnant?  Geesh!   However, as we have learned from current times, many people have their own interpretation of what constitutes sex, and teenagers have a very wide range of interpretations for it.  So I suppose Katherine could have thought that!… LOL

I think there was an agreement between Katherine and Dereham as far as the law was concerned. At least Dereham and Cranmer thought so.  Dereham called her wife and she called him husband.  She may not have been serious but he was.  Cranmer tried to get Katherine to say there was a precontract.  Had she done so, Henry could have set her aside and both her and Dereham would have lived. Katherine should have seen the out Cranmer was offering, but she didn’t.   For her to say she was precontracted would have meant she would no longer have all the goodies that came with being queen. She would go back to having nothing.

Which brings me back to the Duchess. She is alledgely supposed to have caught Derham and Catherine in a compromising position, and again gave Catherine a boot up the bum, but instead of sacking Derham she sent him off to Ireland of some damn fool mission with a flea in his ear. Some sources state that he wanted to go to Ireland and make his fortune and was saying goodbye to Catherine when caught by the Duchess. ok I'll buy that.

I thought the Duchess caught them kissing in an alcove.  I could be wrong on that.  If she caught them in bed, then there is no excuse for what she did later by having Katherine hire Dereham.  Come to think of it there is no excuse for that anyway. I do not understand the Duchess at all.  Nor for that matter do I understand Norfolk.  Did the Duchess bother telling Norfolk that Katherine may not be the wisest choice to set before the king.  Or did the king see her first and that was all she wrote?

But when the Duke of Norfolk decided to use Catherine for his own ends why did the Duchess lie to him about Catherine's virtue?

 I wonder if the subject of Katherine’s virtue was ever brought up. The Duchess was Norfolk’s step-mom.  It might not have occurred to him that anything questionable was going on at her place. I haven’t read too much about this man but I have a feeling he saw the king ogling Katherine while she was in Anne of Cleve’s household and saw a means of gaining power. I think the same thing about the Duchess.

Why then when Derham returned from Ireland, to find Catherine married to the King, why did the Duchess write a letter of recommendation to Catherine for Derham to be allowed to serve her, now she was Queen. Surely the Duchess would have known what a hornets nest she would be stirring up, wouldn't it have been better for Catherine, for the Duchess to keep Derham in her own household and then let him meet with an accident, along the way. Then perhaps Catherine maybe could have kept her head and gone into exile with Culpepper?

Just a theory here but, maybe the Duchess thought it would be best if Dereham was near Katherine.  Before the Duchess was arrested, she burned some letters belonging to Dereham.  They may have been love letters that she did not want Henry’s men to find when they searched her place. If he began sending letters directly to the queen, they may have been read by the wrong people.  Apparently, she thought having him near Katherine would keep him quiet.  Unfortunately, that didn’t work out too well.  Everything would have been okay if Mary Laselles (sp) hadn’t told her brother what went on in the Duchess’ household when she had worked there.  He felt compelled to tell the authorities.

Which brings me back to Jane Rochford. Why blame her? Perhaps she was being blackmailed by Catherine or the Duke of Norfolk, or maybe even Culpepper to help aid their affair? Either way poor Jane was basically the pigeon among a load of cats. We know that Jane went do-dally when the whole sorry affair between Catherine and Culpepper came out, but I wonder if she was faking it, she knew that a criminal who was do-dally couldn't be put on trial or be executed, so maybe by faking lunacy she hoped to spare her life? When she was told she was going to die anyway, for the last few days of her life she did seem to recover her wits and her reason enough to make confession. When she went to the scaffold the poor woman was made to kneel in Catherine's Blood.

  Yes, as you have so aptly put it, I believe Jane was the pigeon among the cats.  She really wasn’t the evil bawd history has named her.  Jane did lose it in the Tower.  Julia Fox, in her book, “Jane Boleyn”, claims that Henry had Jane moved from the Tower to John Russell’s home where she was able to calm down.  She did recover enough to face the scaffold with her wits in tact. 

Didn’t Henry make a law that even if a person was insane, they could still be beheaded for treason?  I think he did.  I just can’t remember when.

Sharon said:

Boleyn said:

But actually now I’ve had a good think about it, I have to ask why Catherine and Culpepper blame Jane Rochford?

Again it begs the question: Did Catherine seriously believe that in laying the blame elsewhere for her naughty behaviour elsewhere that Henry would have shown some kindness (for want of a better word) and simply let Catherine and Culpepper go, maybe into exile with each other and smply airbrush everthing and anything to do with her marriage to the king?  Poor Jane does seem to come across, by what Sharon has said, to have been very hapless and perhaps a much misinterperted person

 

Hi Boleyn,

I hope you don't mind if I answer piece meal here.  I don't know how to break it down in one shot.

I think they blamed Jane in hopes of being allowed to live.  Although Culpepper, being the older of the two, and having served Henry during the Anne debacle, should have known that an excuse like, 'it was Jane's fault' was not going to win his freedom.  When I read Katherine's testimony, all I can think is that she's such a teenager.  Nothing was ever her fault.  I know she was between 19 and 21, but she comes across as much younger.  They not only blamed Jane, they also pointed the finger at each other.  It seems Katherine thought that if she could lay the blame elsewhere, Henry would induldge her as he always did and forgive his rose without a thorn! 

 Jane was certainly more involved in this matter than she was in the previous mess. She was involved in finding these two places to meet,  she delivered messages and tokens between them, and she made sure they were undisturbed during their trysts.  When it came time for her to testify, in yet another trial of a queen, she told the truth.  Hey, she wasn't arrested for her testimony in the trial of her husband and sister-in-law, why would she think she would be punished for telling the truth in this affair?  She totally misjudged Henry's reaction.  They all did.  Henry had been looking for a way to be rid of Anne.  He was hurt and humiliated by Katherine.

Good point Sharon… And yeah you are right again, thinking about it (Ooooh thinking a dangerous occupation for me well so Dinosaur says) Katherine was extrememely immature, and as you said we don't actually know what age she was when she went to the block. Some scholars argue that she was born Cica 1519/20, whilst others say 1525, either way whatever she age she was, her mental age certainly didn't fit her chronlogical age.

Whose actual idea was it that she went to her grandmother's house to be educated? Rumour has it that the Duchess ws visiting the household Edmund Howard (Katherine's father) and was dismayed to see what a shambles it was in, and decided to take one of the younger children home with her, but then it begs the question why just Katherine?Why didn't the Duchess take any of others? They were all in a sorry state, and needing help?, but then by only taking Katherine she did Katherine's brother's and sister's a favour, as they too may have felt the axe blade in 1542, purely because that they too were in the Duchess's household when Derham disgraced Katherine.

Either way whose ever idea it was was a bad one because the Duchess failed miserably to fulfil the expectations of the families who had also asked the Duchess to educate their girls too. Although from books the Duchess did provide tutors for the girls in her care when Anne was Queen and Katherine herself was meant to have met Anne in 1533 when she was visiting the Duchess, at Lambeth. If we take Katherine's date of birth as 1520, that would have made Katherine's 12/13, and therefore of a marrigeble age, which Anne as Queen might have had a say in, but I personally think Katherine was born in 1525, making her about 7 or 8, but of course with Anne's death the Howard family fortunes were thrown into disarray and getting out of the whole sorry situation with their heads and their fortunes intact was the main priority, but even so the Duchess would have still had some money coming in from her dower lands and from the families of the girls to continue to provide for their education etc, So where did it go? Did the Duchess use it to bribe Henry to make sure she kept her head?, her money and her wards? After having wards was quite a lucuritive money earner.Although I believe that some of the families that had placed their children in the Duchess's household when Anne was Queen quickly got their children reurned to them along with their money at Anne's downfall and death. However despite Anne's death, and a possible loss of some of fortune, she the Duchess, must have had money enough to pay for a Music teacher and Music teacher's weren't cheap good ones that is, and Mannox must have been a good teacher, to be asked to teach the children in the Duchess's household in the first place. The fact that the Duchess made a recommendation to her neighbour about his apparent skill as a teacher to get him a job there after his behaviour towards Katherine was discovered,  he was good.

I put forward a theory, a few days ago that I thought that Katherine was placed with the Duchess, by the Duke (her Uncle) to be groomed for want of a better word for a mistress for Henry whilst Anne was busy with Pregnancies. When that idea all collaped and went down the pan Katherine became of no further use to either the Duke or the Duchess, as it was clear at that moment anyway that Jane would be around for some time yet, and that the Seymours, were all powerful because of it. So there was no point in the Duke putting Katherine in at the deep end  and hoping that Henry would cast his eye over her whenthe Duke was in it himself, and barely able to keep his head above water. If Jane had lived maybe the Duke in time would have drowned, but due to the Pilgramage of Grace he was able to wade out and redeem himself in Henry's eyes for putting down the rebellion. When Jane died, did the Duke kind of think that his plan to make Katherine's the King's mistress might have a chance after all? Seriously I don't think marriage with the King was on the Agenda where the Duke was concerned, Katherine was meant to be a distraction and play thing for Henry to be used and cast and married off to whoever when the time came.

With Cromwell schemes of Grandeur when the Cleves Marriage was proposed (I thinkCromwell was offered the Duchy of one of the German Princes that he hoped to retire too)

The Duke got rather too careless, perhaps even bitter and thought, why should this jumped up puffed out little pipsqueak Cromwell have something that I should have, I've given Loyal service to the crown and my blood line is a Royal one. And decided well in for a penny in for a pound and put forward to the Duchess that Katherine could be Queen instead of a mistress, Katherine was young enough and likely to produce children so why not. If we take her D.O.B as 1525 she was just 15, with many years ahead of her for childbearing and to produce a brood of Howard Boys, to rule England, so once again the Howards would fly high Royally perhaps even now, if the Duke's scheme had worked.

Or perhaps Henry was so bedazzled by Katherine when she was placed as maid in waiting to Anne of Cleves, and was so different in looks than his flanders mare (although evidence suggests he never actually called Anne of Cleves this.), Henry simply lost his head and his reason and wanted to marry her anyway? or perhaps he was suffering middle age madness or in Henry's case Middle age Dread? Surely Henry must have noticed that she was a bit thick or did he not care? and was letting his hormones rule his head?

I agree that Katherine did think she could brazen her way out with Henry once her behaviour came to light, and perhaps she might have done if she had had the education and intelligence to do it.(After all Catherine Parr's intelligence, only just managed to keep her head, when she crossed swords with Henry about getting the Bible printed in English, Catherine Parr mearly said that she was wrong and he was right and that opinions were simply woman's opinions and therefore of no value, and that she mearly wanted to learn from Henry so that she herself would know how she should live her life right and therefore get into heaven when she died or something like that)

.Again this is where the Duchess so utterly failed her. Yes I agree that Culpepper blamed Katherine and vice versa, but perhaps that was a ploy on Culpepper's part because if each party blames each other how can they find out who was actually in the wrong in the first place.

 Perhaps Culpepper believed that Katherine was a virgin or I should say possibly a Virgin as we do know that Henry did attempt to have sexual intercourse with Katherine, and Henry himself believed she was a virgin when he slept with her for the first time and that he Culpepper had actually had taken her viginity not Henry. 

Culpepper must have been dismayed and angry to learn that Katherine had had a fairly torrid affair with another man before the King, and was stunned to learn that Katherine had taken her former lover into her household, and felt that if they could use both Derham and Jane as their scapegoats they could survive and go off into the sunset with one another.  By blaming Jane who was Culpepper's go between , and by Katherine saying that Derham had raped her when she was in Duchess's household, they could get rid of the only 2 people who know the true nature of their affair. Maybe that might of worked, had not the testimony of Mary Lasselle, been so graffic, and exact, or if perhaps the Duchess had told the truth, about catching Katherine in a compromissing position with Derham, these things may have been turned to Katherine's advantage, to spare her's and Culpepper's lives.

By the way is there any record of Mary Lasselle's testimony about Katherine Howard? I know her brother was burnt at the stake only a few years after Katherine's death for being a heretic. Cold Comfort..or should that be Hot Comfort LOL

Jane Bulmer and the others who were with her now and in the Duchess's household were only too happy to be away from the humdrum life they would have had with their husbands, so maybe might have kept their mouths shut. The Howard name after all carried a lot of prestige, and any man or woman employed in a Howard household would consider themselves privilaged, but even then her maids must have known that if Katherine had escaped with her life they wouldn't have been allowed to have served anyway? Jane Bulmer I believe was one of the main parties to tesify against Katherine anyway, although it could be argued that she was as possibly as guilty as Lady Rochford was. I'm not entirely sure what became of Jane Bulmer after Katherine's death, but I think she went back to her husband and became the mistress of one of her Husband's freinds with his blessing, and married her lover after her husband died. Don't quote me on this.. Jane Bulmer was perhaps lucky to have escaped Henry's wrath or just extremely clever.

I wonder though would Katherine been allowed to actually marry Culpepper if they had actually met(which they did when she was in service to Anne of Cleves) before Henry decided to marry her himself?

If there was a pre-contact between her and Derham, that would mean a lot retraction and a possible pay off for Derham to put his hands up and say ok, I don't want to marry you. But given that Culpepper and Katherine were actually cousins on her mother's side, surely the King would not agree for them to be married on the grounds of consanguity, and bear in mind that although the King was seen as head of the Church in England Henry, still considered that he and his people were Catholic and still observed and followed some of the Catholic obeyances, so therefore it would stand to reason that although permission was sought and possibly given to marry by the King, the final ruling and dispensation, that there would have to be for cousins to marry would have to come from Rome?

The Howards were after all Catholic, although they did go along with Henry's scheme of things. Although the Thomas Howard was inprisoned after Katherine Howard's downfall he was released shortly after Edward's death by Mary Tudor and given back his land and his titles, and treated with all due respect in her reign. Mary's reign was a real muddle of religions, nobody actually knew what to do for the best, even if they said they were good Catholics and acted accordinly, they only had to breathe in when they should have breathed out, and they were in the Tower,with the next stop being Smithfield and the Stake..Thank what ever lucky stars there were for Elizabeth..

 Unforturately it certainly seems that Poor Katherine's itelligence didn't match what she was so desperate to do, Save her life.

I don't mind at all if you break my ramblings down into something a little more managable. One often gets carried away with theological discussion. Dinosaur says that I could at times give David Starkey a good run for his money.

Apologies in advance for the scattershot nature of this post.

Who is Dinosaur?

But we do know that she (KH) did have some sort of romance with Mannox, although I don't believe it was of a sexual nature. I think that he basically fondled her in a sexually suggestive way, and she simply tinkered with him.

That certainly seems to be of a sexual nature to me! There's a lot more to sex than penetration.

When she (Jane Rochford) went to the scaffold, the poor woman was made to kneel in Catherine's blood. 

I believe they wiped down the scaffold and scattered more straw in between executions. Small comfort, I know…

Also by admitting that she (KOA) had lied all along, she thought Mary would suffer too. At least (by) sticking to her story that she was Queen meant that Mary too would become Queen.

It meant no such thing, as Mary was bastardized by her father anyway despite KOA's protestations of virginity at the time of her marriage to Henry. I personally believe her, as she swore on the damnation of her soul at a time when she knew her time in this life was short.

I think I can understand your question. I read in a book some time ago now.. I think it was a Philippa Gregory book, “The Virgin Widow” (or it) may have even been a Jean Plaidy book…

I don't mean to be offensive, but this is a problem for me. You shouldn't take sections from a fictional book and use them to argue what truly happened. They're fiction. Not true. Sensational. Not to be taken as historical truth. And on that note, are the following passages also from books of fiction? Because I haven't read them in a reputable, non-fiction book regarding any of these people. If I am mistaken, please let me know! I'd want to read those books.

Mannox was sent away from the household, although Catherine still continued to meet with Mannox, for a short while after as he was employed by the Duchess's neighbour, I believe.

I read in one book that Catherine had consulted her elder sister about any forms of birth control she might know of, and her sister said she had found that half a lemon was quite effective in preventing another pregancy so soon after the birth of her first child.

The Duchess herself walked in on one of the bedroom midnight feasts and saw what went on there, so again she must have been aware that there might have been something more than just chatter and strawberries.. I'm not sure, but I believe Mary Lasselle actually told the Duchess that she didn't like what was going on in the chamber at night and that there were a lot of noises coming from Catherine's bed that weren't normal.

Was Katherine Of Aragon a Virgin? Well there were enough people in and around the court in Ludlow to say otherwise, and in fact the laundresses did say there was blood on the sheets to tesify that something may (have) happened, but Katherine stated that the blood came from the fact she had pricked her heel to put blood on the sheets.

Personally, I believe that Arthur did consummate the union with Katherine, perhaps enough to infect her with (syphilis) or maybe even the other way around, and due to Arthur's weak health and the damp of Ludlow Castle, the tertian fever he got was made worse by the fact that he might have got syphilis from Katherine. Katherine's father was well known as a gigolo and had many wh*res, so it's possible that one of his wh*res gave him syphilis, who in turn passed it to Katherine via her mother. Certainly it was said that Mary, Katherine's daughter may have had it, as Philip (Mary's husband) once commented that she had syphilitic crusts around her nose. Did syphilis make her sterile? And just what was this growth she had in her belly that made her think she was pregnant?

That last one flabbergasted me. Congenital syphilis is a very serious thing. According to the National US Library of Medicine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu…..0002320/ ),

Congenital syphilis is a severe, disabling, and often life-threatening infection seen in infants. Nearly half of all children infected with syphilis while they are in the womb die shortly before or after birth.

Symptoms in older infants and young children may include:

• Abnormal notched and peg-shaped teeth, called Hutchinson teeth
• Bone pain
• Blindness
• Clouding of the cornea
• Decreased hearing or deafness
• Deformity of the face
• Nervous system problems
• Mental retardation

It's quite improbable that syphilis could have been passed from Ferdinand to Isabella to Katharine to Mary without some or many of these problems not being evident. I'm not familiar with reputable sources “certainly” saying that Mary (and thus, Katharine) had syphilis, nor that Philip made such a comment. I believe that Mary's age made it difrficult if not impossible to conceive. Even with modern medicine, women in their late 30s have much lower fertility than younger women. The tumor in her abdomen that eventually killed her was called cancer even at the time (shortly before her death). It obviously may have also been a factor in her not conceiving.

ETA: “Katherine's father was well known as a gigolo” I don’t think that word means what you think it means. I’ve read no evidence that Ferdinand of Aragon was a male prostitute.

Such long posts! LOL, it's getting hard to keep up.

Impish_Impulse said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Kathryn went first, being of higher rank. Not sure the other had to watch, though. Didn't they bring them out separately? Where did I get that idea? Must go flipping through my books and get back to you on that one.

 

Protocol meant that the higher the rank, the earlier you were dispatched to save on the wear and tear on the axe and have an easier beheading*. So George was first, followed in strict sequence down to Mark. 

* A sharp axe being better to cut your head off than one which had gone through several other necks before it smote yours.

Sometimes overthinking is bad

Impish_Impulse said:

Thanks Anyanka, but the part I wanted to look up was whether Kathryn and Jane came out separately vs. Jane having to watch. And yes, rank had its privileges to the bitter end, didn’t it?

Yes, rank had the priviledge of going first to the scaffold.

In Baldwin's book, “Catherine Howard”, it sound as if they were there on the scaffold together. Katherine had to be helped up the stairs because she was so weak. In Julia Fox's Book, “Jane Boleyn', she writes there is only one eyewitness account of the executions. But that eyewitness doesn't say they went to get Jane after Katherine was dead. Shortened version: Katherine needed to be helped up the stairs because she was in a weakened state. He states they both gave the speech of loving the king.  Katherine was beheaded first.  Her body was covered with a cloth.  Then Jane was beheaded. They died well. The eyewitness was John Ottwell.  His statement can be found in LP,XVII, no. 106.

Chapuys and Marillac give brief explanations of the beheadings. 

So Fox gives the reference to the witness and then she says, once Katherine was dead, Gage ordered water thrown over the scaffold and covered it with straw.  Didn't want anyone slipping in the blood. Gage went to Jane's room, knocked on her door and escorted her down the path to the scaffold.