i’ve not seen anything which seriously puts foward evidence that Anne was guilty of the charges levelled aginst her, all i see is a distinct lack of sympathy for her position: Anne had quite happily conived in the deeply dodgy de-throning of one Queen, she can hardly claim unfairness when someone else does the same to her…

turnabout being fair play etc…

A lot of Anne’s guilt was based on a poem, written his name escapes me for now. I’m pretty sure as well that this poem was written when Queen Liz was on the throne, which would have been a bit of Catholic properganda, for those who believe that MQoS should have been Queen. That’s just my opinion mind you.
Some scholars believe this poem is enough to say she was guilty, and have perhaps used it to fit the lies that Cromwell and H8 concocted, between them.
Personally I believe that she was only guilty of falling in love with H8. The adultery/incest/treason charges were rubbish, there is no way I can see that she would have waited for 7 years before taking up horizontal jogging, and then turn around and give keep fit classes to every man who happened to look her way. Proposterious..
Anne was a fun loving woman, who lived life to the full.

Thank you Sharon.
I do believe that J.B was under the impression that George would be aquitted, and that they would ride off into the sunset of exile together.
I think at one point it was believed that Cromwell had bribed Jane into giving evidence against Anne in exchange for George’s life. Of course we now know that to be rubbish. Jane and Anne got on reasonably enough, and I don’t think Jane would have put her court position at risk by tackling a woman who had caught the king’s fancy, if she hadn’t have liked Anne much.
I’m sure Lancelot’s poem was revived at at later date too. I’m not too sure but I think Queen (Bloody) Mary actually made a comment about Lizzy being Smeaton’s daughter?
Yes I agree the dates are certainly all wrong. I think one of them stated she had bedded one of them at Windsor when she was in fact at Greenwich recovering from a miscarriage which had happened just days before. the whole case is a complete farce from start to finish. But at the time Faceache wanted shot of Anne, and between him and Cromwell they concocted the whole thing.
Makes me laugh he used Incest to get shot of K.O.A, Insest again to get rid of Anne. but this time he claimed it was her commiting Incest with her brother, and before he had even married Anne he sent to the pope for a dispensation asking to marry Anne despite the fact that he had had a “”relationship” with her sister Mary, which under the terms of law in those times would mean his relationship with Anne would have been incestious as well. It has even been rumoured that Lizzy was the result of Anne and George’s incestious liason. Face ache certainly had a big thing about incest.
Yep I agree faceache’s problems could only be put down to one person. Himself. The only person who suffered because of self made problems was himself. He basically spent the rest of his reign after Anne’s murder (by his order) wallowing in his own crapulance, tortured by guilt that he had sent an innocent woman to her death, which was then made worse by sending poor little Kitty H to the same death. She was guilty of carnal pleasures before her marriage but IMO she did not commit adultery with Culpepper. Jane.B unfortunetely just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and got dragged into the whole sorry mess.
Henry had killed plenty of others in his reign but I think he had convinced himself they were guilty, with Anne he knew that the whole trial and her death was completely based on a lie upon lie, and he had to live with that, which he couldn’t bear. He had always been able to find a way of blaming someone else for his problems, but he couldn’t this one. The blame feel squarely on him as you rightly say Sharon. I think part of the reason to why Cromwell got chopped was because he simply couldn’t live with the guilt of what he had done, and he hoped by killing the very person who helped dream up the case against Anne it would lessen the guilt he felt, but in fact it made it 10 times as bad.

Louise said
GW Bernard has tried to argue that Anne was guilty of some of the charges, but his theories are not backed up be other historians. In any event they are not convincing arguments. Altimately Bernard admits he is relying on a ‘hunch’.

So I’ve heard about that abominable man and his theories before, but never read anything concrete, so I went ahead and googled and found this:

“His biography, Anne Boleyn: Fatal Attractions, due out from Yale University Press in April, also disputes the view that Anne held back from sexual relations with Henry until he agreed to make her his queen, claiming that it is ‘highly implausible’. He believes that it was Henry, not Anne, who held back, on the grounds that he wanted their children to be his legitimate heirs. ‘He would, I suspect, have been astonished and horrified to discover that later generations have supposed he did not sleep with Anne in those years because she would not let him,’ Bernard says.”

So what is he trying to say? That Anne had no intention whatsoever of /not/ sleeping with Henry and he just dropped in at Hever one day and was like, “Yo, I could totally get into your pants if I wanted but instead I’mma ask the pope if he allows us to marry and if that doesn’t work I’mma eff up this whole country and shit!” And that Anne, a very smart woman, was dumb enough to take the risk of having Henry’s illegitimate children after she knew that Henry was willing to marry her?
That’s some first class sexist bullshit, that of course it has to be the seductive, ambitious woman wanting to have intercourse with Henry to get what she wants, then later one having sex with half of the court.. because why the hell not, right?

La Plus Heureuse said

Louise said
GW Bernard has tried to argue that Anne was guilty of some of the charges, but his theories are not backed up be other historians. In any event they are not convincing arguments. Altimately Bernard admits he is relying on a ‘hunch’.

So I’ve heard about that abominable man and his theories before, but never read anything concrete, so I went ahead and googled and found this:

“His biography, Anne Boleyn: Fatal Attractions, due out from Yale University Press in April, also disputes the view that Anne held back from sexual relations with Henry until he agreed to make her his queen, claiming that it is ‘highly implausible’. He believes that it was Henry, not Anne, who held back, on the grounds that he wanted their children to be his legitimate heirs. ‘He would, I suspect, have been astonished and horrified to discover that later generations have supposed he did not sleep with Anne in those years because she would not let him,’ Bernard says.”

So what is he trying to say? That Anne had no intention whatsoever of /not/ sleeping with Henry and he just dropped in at Hever one day and was like, “Yo, I could totally get into your pants if I wanted but instead I’mma ask the pope if he allows us to marry and if that doesn’t work I’mma eff up this whole country and shit!” And that Anne, a very smart woman, was dumb enough to take the risk of having Henry’s illegitimate children after she knew that Henry was willing to marry her?
That’s some first class sexist bullshit, that of course it has to be the seductive, ambitious woman wanting to have intercourse with Henry to get what she wants, then later one having sex with half of the court.. because why the hell not, right?

I thought I had that book….but I don’t . Not sure if I’m going to buy it now…

There is at least one historian( Rewicke???) who thinks that there may have been some sexual activity between Henry and Anne when Henry thought the pope would go, “Yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir” and grant the annulment.

Which then stopped since Henry wanted to convey the “woe is me, wife no good…needs new model…er..Love the one I’ve got but see nooo boybabys”.

Keeping the idea that Anne was not the reason and boybabys were meant that no nookie for Henry. No wonder Anne was frustrated!

La Plus Heureuse said

Louise said
GW Bernard has tried to argue that Anne was guilty of some of the charges, but his theories are not backed up be other historians. In any event they are not convincing arguments. Altimately Bernard admits he is relying on a ‘hunch’.

So I’ve heard about that abominable man and his theories before, but never read anything concrete, so I went ahead and googled and found this:

“His biography, Anne Boleyn: Fatal Attractions, due out from Yale University Press in April, also disputes the view that Anne held back from sexual relations with Henry until he agreed to make her his queen, claiming that it is ‘highly implausible’. He believes that it was Henry, not Anne, who held back, on the grounds that he wanted their children to be his legitimate heirs. ‘He would, I suspect, have been astonished and horrified to discover that later generations have supposed he did not sleep with Anne in those years because she would not let him,’ Bernard says.”

So what is he trying to say? That Anne had no intention whatsoever of /not/ sleeping with Henry and he just dropped in at Hever one day and was like, “Yo, I could totally get into your pants if I wanted but instead I’mma ask the pope if he allows us to marry and if that doesn’t work I’mma eff up this whole country and shit!” And that Anne, a very smart woman, was dumb enough to take the risk of having Henry’s illegitimate children after she knew that Henry was willing to marry her?
That’s some first class sexist bullshit, that of course it has to be the seductive, ambitious woman wanting to have intercourse with Henry to get what she wants, then later one having sex with half of the court.. because why the hell not, right?

Yes, darnnit. God bless Henry and his willpower! We know all women are weak and will jump into a king’s bed as soon as he looks their way. I guess when Henry wrote to Anne telling her he couldn’t wait to see her ducky’s, he was referring to the ducks in Hever’s pond. He was that much a gentleman! Of course.
Anne was the strong one here. She was absolutely against being anyone’s mistress, including the king. Once he decided he wanted to marry her, he would have had to stay out of her bed so no child could be called illegitimate. But the marriage idea came 1 to 1 1/2 years into the relationship. Before that we know from his letters that he was obviously trying to make her his mistress and she was the one refusing.

Sharon said

La Plus Heureuse said

Louise said
GW Bernard has tried to argue that Anne was guilty of some of the charges, but his theories are not backed up be other historians. In any event they are not convincing arguments. Altimately Bernard admits he is relying on a ‘hunch’.

So I’ve heard about that abominable man and his theories before, but never read anything concrete, so I went ahead and googled and found this:

“His biography, Anne Boleyn: Fatal Attractions, due out from Yale University Press in April, also disputes the view that Anne held back from sexual relations with Henry until he agreed to make her his queen, claiming that it is ‘highly implausible’. He believes that it was Henry, not Anne, who held back, on the grounds that he wanted their children to be his legitimate heirs. ‘He would, I suspect, have been astonished and horrified to discover that later generations have supposed he did not sleep with Anne in those years because she would not let him,’ Bernard says.”

So what is he trying to say? That Anne had no intention whatsoever of /not/ sleeping with Henry and he just dropped in at Hever one day and was like, “Yo, I could totally get into your pants if I wanted but instead I’mma ask the pope if he allows us to marry and if that doesn’t work I’mma eff up this whole country and shit!” And that Anne, a very smart woman, was dumb enough to take the risk of having Henry’s illegitimate children after she knew that Henry was willing to marry her?
That’s some first class sexist bullshit, that of course it has to be the seductive, ambitious woman wanting to have intercourse with Henry to get what she wants, then later one having sex with half of the court.. because why the hell not, right?

Yes, darnnit. God bless Henry and his willpower! We know all women are weak and will jump into a king’s bed as soon as he looks their way. I guess when Henry wrote to Anne telling her he couldn’t wait to see her ducky’s, he was referring to the ducks in Hever’s pond. He was that much a gentleman! Of course.
Anne was the strong one here. She was absolutely against being anyone’s mistress, including the king. Once he decided he wanted to marry her, he would have had to stay out of her bed so no child could be called illegitimate. But the marriage idea came 1 to 1 1/2 years into the relationship. Before that we know from his letters that he was obviously trying to make her his mistress and she was the one refusing.

You must be right! I see it all clearly now. Anne probably sacrificed herself so that Henry could marry Jane Seymour, too! Wow. Glad this man made us see the truth.

I don’t understand how she sacrificed her own life. She was put on trial, found guilty and beheaded. She didn’t exactly offer her life in order to save her daughter. She had no choice but to die.

Whether or not she was truly guilty is a different argument. But that’s what happened to her, rightly or wrongly. She didn’t choose for that to happen. To suggest that she sacrificed herself implies that there were other options, which there weren’t. We all know it was a foregone conclusion. To bravely accept her fate is different from sacrificing herself.

I guess what I mean by that Tudor Fan is that. After the trial fiasco/farce, I believe H8 offered Anne a get out of jail free card. I.e give up all rights and titles , and those of your child and bog off abroad together. Anne must have known to do that would have been fatal as she and Lizzy wouldn’t have lived long enough to enjoy the freedom. By telling H8 to poke his get out of jail free card right up his backside, she had guarenteed her death, but in doing so Elizabeth would live. So to my mind Anne sacrificed her life.