I think Anne’s fall was the result of a political coup rather than just because she didn’t produce a son – lets face it, they had only been married three years! I think Henry was kind of tired of her and allowed her enemies to bring her down, so that he could marry Jane. I personally think Jane Seymour was a cold and manipulative person who was quite happy to see her predecessor die so she could have the crown – even Anne wasn’t guilty of that: she expected Henry to divorce KOA, not kill her. I agree, she did not deserve to die and the charges against her were completely trumped up.

I feel as tho Anne knew her cards were marked no matter how much she would fight her cause , i think she worried about Elizabeth and any repercussions on any actions would/could be aimed at her daughter?, we all know how we worry about our kids, i feels as if Anne just gave up and let the dogs have there feast. so sad

It would have to be an industrial strength rope

Boleyn said

One of the charges was that she had sex with Smeaton whilst at Windsor, she was at Windsor yes, but she was recovering from a miscarriage at the time this fabricated incident happened. What amazes me that Cromwell seemed to get away with such fabricated evidence? Henry surely would have known that some of the things Cromwell said in his paperwork was lies? why didn’t he say something? A man who turned the world upside down all for the love of one woman, and made sure what he did was seen a legal everywhere, would surely want the same facts and figures when turning the world inside out to get rid of her?

I seem to remember if Anne and at least one of the men had had sex, he must have extremely well-endowed since they were in different places..

We all known that K.O.A was given a lawyer of sorts to argue her case, why wasn’t Anne given that same right? Did she chose not to have someone to defend her? or did Henry feel so threatened by what Anne might say about him, that he refused to allow her council. In which case in the modern world the case and subsequent judgement against her would be ruled as unsafe and she would possibly be aquitted of all charges.

2 different types of trail. One was on the legality of their marriage which was a religious matter and the other was a secular offense for the most part, though adultry did fall under the auspeces of the church. Treason trials did tend to be very much a he said/she said kind of trial. I don’t think Thomas Moore had a lawyer either.

Boleyn said

One of the charges was that she had sex with Smeaton whilst at Windsor, she was at Windsor yes, but she was recovering from a miscarriage at the time this fabricated incident happened. What amazes me that Cromwell seemed to get away with such fabricated evidence? Henry surely would have known that some of the things Cromwell said in his paperwork was lies? why didn’t he say something? A man who turned the world upside down all for the love of one woman, and made sure what he did was seen a legal everywhere, would surely want the same facts and figures when turning the world inside out to get rid of her?
We all known that K.O.A was given a lawyer of sorts to argue her case, why wasn’t Anne given that same right? Did she chose not to have someone to defend her? or did Henry feel so threatened by what Anne might say about him, that he refused to allow her council. In which case in the modern world the case and subsequent judgement against her would be ruled as unsafe and she would possibly be aquitted of all charges.
Lets face it Henry was nothing more than a Arsehat and everything he did always resulted in someone else’s life being completely destroyed.

Cromwell added wording to the charges. I can’t remember exactly what the words were but they went something like…they met on the dates mentioned and/or on other occasions. Sorry if that’s way off. Of course Henry knew the dates were wrong, but he didn’t want Anne around anymore. That’s how Cromwell got away with it. His boss said word it so there is no way out. Truth was unimportant here.

People who were charged with treason during Henry’s time were not given lawyers.

Anyanka said

Boleyn said

One of the charges was that she had sex with Smeaton whilst at Windsor, she was at Windsor yes, but she was recovering from a miscarriage at the time this fabricated incident happened. What amazes me that Cromwell seemed to get away with such fabricated evidence? Henry surely would have known that some of the things Cromwell said in his paperwork was lies? why didn’t he say something? A man who turned the world upside down all for the love of one woman, and made sure what he did was seen a legal everywhere, would surely want the same facts and figures when turning the world inside out to get rid of her?

I seem to remember if Anne and at least one of the men had had sex, he must have extremely well-endowed since they were in different places..

We all known that K.O.A was given a lawyer of sorts to argue her case, why wasn’t Anne given that same right? Did she chose not to have someone to defend her? or did Henry feel so threatened by what Anne might say about him, that he refused to allow her council. In which case in the modern world the case and subsequent judgement against her would be ruled as unsafe and she would possibly be aquitted of all charges.

2 different types of trail. One was on the legality of their marriage which was a religious matter and the other was a secular offense for the most part, though adultry did fall under the auspeces of the church. Treason trials did tend to be very much a he said/she said kind of trial. I don’t think Thomas Moore had a lawyer either.

Thank you Anyanka.
So in affect anyone accused of treason was dead even if they had commited treason or not? I wonder why those accused of treason were not allowed Council? Was it perhaps to do with what was allegely said by the accused and the fear that these words would spread and become Trouble with a capital T? Fact is what words were considered treason? Plotting again the King’s life was one, or saying things like Buckingham did” If Henry dies and Mary dies I shall be King”. But as far as I can tell the only thing that Anne said which was a little near the mark was the dead man’s shoes remark she made to Norris, but as she didn’t mention Henry’s name in that statement I don’t think that could be classed as treasonous. Yes I heard about the accusation with one of the men accused of carnal relations with Anne I believe she was at Whithall and he was at Hampton court. With a doodle that long, he could use it as a winter scarf.
Thomas More was a lawyer himself so would have defended himself if he had been able, in fact given how brilliant he was he probably would have been able to get his whole trial exposed for what it was, “A farce”

I now understand why Anne went through periods of euphoria and depression whilst in the Tower, the first trial was to divorce her from Henry, which generally resulted in the divorcee in this case Anne going into a convent, (possibly taking Elizabeth with her) whilst freeing Henry from any obligation to her and thus being able to marry again with a clear conscious. That would of course been the normal course of events, as it was with K.O.A. However this wasn’t the case for Henry divorce simply wasn’t enough and he wanted Anne dead at all costs, that’s where Cromwell came in and fabricated lies which were enough to convince the court that Anne was a traitor. That was the end of Anne.
In K.H’s case she did commit adultery if you except there was a pre contract with Dereham,(I believe that she had an understanding with him that they would marry when time and tide were right) but she in no way cuckolded Henry with Culpepper.
Equally so she didn’t deserve to die and neither did Dereham after all what had they actually done wrong? O.k so they had sex, but wasn’t sex permissionable between a contracted couple? Henry’s rage against K.H was not so much to do with the fact he’s been made a fool of (although that was a tiny part of it) it was more down to the fact of “well if I can’t have her then no one else will either” “Off with her head”..

“Jorja” As far as I know Lady Rochford didnt say anything about George and Anne, In fact she and Anne had quite a cordial relationship, and there was one occation where Jane B confronted one of Henry’s supossed mistresses and gave her a slap for daring to play with Henry.
Cromwell was all out to destroy the Boleyns and blackened everyone who was connected with them or at least tried to.
If Jane B had been guilty of saying was she was alledged to have said about Anne and George I doubt very much she would ever be allowed anywhere near the court again and least of all to serve the next 3 Queens.

Anyanka said

Boleyn said

“Jorja” As far as I know Lady Rochford didnt say anything about George and Anne, In fact she and Anne had quite a cordial relationship, and there was one occation where Jane B confronted one of Henry’s supossed mistresses and gave her a slap for daring to play with Henry.
Cromwell was all out to destroy the Boleyns and blackened everyone who was connected with them or at least tried to.
If Jane B had been guilty of saying was she was alledged to have said about Anne and George I doubt very much she would ever be allowed anywhere near the court again and least of all to serve the next 3 Queens.

Jane certainly wouldn’t want to harm her sister-in-law’s marriage in the early days. That was why she plotted with Anne to remove one of Henry’s “ladies” from court being exiled for her pains. And if Anne had told Jane about Henry’s …err…short-comings, then she must have had a good relationship with her.

Certainly if there was any taint attached to her, I doubt she would have been welcome at court.Henry had some very strange ideas at times and Jane Seymour wanted her ladies court to be far more “moral” than Anne’s so she wouldn’t have wanted a lady with a suspicious past in attendance on her.

Julia Fox’s book about Jane is a good read about Tudor upper-class women and their expectations. There’s some good insights into Jane’s life, too.

Thank You Anyanka:
I totally agree. However Jane must have been a very tough lady, as there would have been people at court who would have heard the rumours that Jane sent both George and Anne to the scaffold, because she was jealous Blah blah blah, and perhaps whispered in corners to any newcomers to avoid her etc, so fair play on Jane riding out the storm. I sort of understand now why K.H and Culpepper blamed Jane for their naughty behaviour, they too would have heard the rumours about Jane and found her to be a convienient scapegoat. Small wonder poor Jane lost her wits and reason for a while, the mental strain she must have been under from the time of George and Anne’s murders must have been tremendious.

Sharon said

Rumors about Jane sending George and Anne to the scaffold did not start until after her death. She was accepted back at court quite readily after their deaths. With the jointure she received, she was well off. She could have retired from court; but she had been at court for the better part of her life, and she chose to return. The court may have talked about the fact that her husband was beheaded along with her sister-in-law for treason, but at that point there were no whispers that Jane’s testimony had condemned them. Everyone knew who the culprit for that debacle was. Henry was feared by his court for good reason after that mess.

I agree. Jane is read backwards (that came from Julia Fox not me; I’m not that clever)!
Henry was advised by different factions, and he was influenced by different factions, but I find it hard to accept that his ego allowed him to become a patsy(sp?). He wasn’t stupid, and the portrayal of him as a King who was led by the nose by the likes of Cromwell makes him appear weak and rather foolish (cMantel). There’s a thread on this site asking what influence Henry’s wives had on him. I think they had as much influence on Henry as Henry allowed them to have. When Anne continued to try and exert influence after she had fallen from Henry’s affections he killed her. It wasn’t the sole reason for Anne’s demise, but it was one reason. Henry accepted advice if it resulted in him getting what he wanted, and he was influenced as far as he was prepared to be influenced. It all came down to him in the end.