Surrey, Thomas Howard, suggested to Wolsey that James might marry Anne and unite the warring clans.  He loathed Ireland and knew Henry would soon tire of a problem which he did not have the resources or interest to solve. There was a lack of enthusiasm from Thomas Boleyn.  It was Surrey being Surrey.  James Butler was being brought up-or kept as hostage-in Wolsey's household.  Anne, Surrey's niece, was of an age to marry.  What better way to solve the problem of the title than to have these two marry?  It would have made Ormonde dependent on Henry. Surrey goes to Ireland and soon Ormonde becomes Surrey's right hand man.  By 1520 the earl had gotten the Irish council to propose the match to Henry.

Surrey reminds Wolsey about the proposal.  He keeps up the campaign by sending a draft of an Act for the Irish parliament, recognizing Butler (Ormonde) as head of his family. And then nothing happened for nine months.  The marriage talk resurfaced in 1521. Surrey appealed for approval of the Act in Butler's favor and asked for the return of James to his father. 

Butler started haggling for the return of his son and the completion of the marriage to Anne.  Wolsey who had been in Calais at a European peace conference advised Henry in mid-November that James was too valuable a hostage to surrender. Soon after that Anne must have been recalled from France. But Wolsey for the first time, but not for the last time, did not 'perfect' marriage for Anne.

In 1523 Piers Butler, James' father, is trying to bind nobles to support him against the Boleyn claim.  If true, Butler gave up hope of a settlement by marriage, presumably because Boleyn made difficulties.  What Anne's father was standing out for was the earldom of Ormonde, and her marriage was a lever to that end. 

 It took until 1528 to make progress by way of compromise. The Butler'staking the disputed lands on a long lease at moderate rents, in return for surrendering the Ormonde title and instead taking the earldom of Ossory. The last piece in the settlement for the earldom took place in December, 1529 and Wolsey had already fallen out of favor.  Ive's claims that Wolsey was none too pleased at the way events had gone against him and once again delayed Boleyn to teach him who was in charge.

Long before that, however, Henry's interest in Anne had become obvious. Ive's says it seems curious that Wolsey should have taken it upon himself to 'perfect' Anne's marriage in 1521 without consulting her father when they were together in Calais.  It is possible that Wolsey never intended a match between James and Anne to be anything other than a long-term inducement to the Butler's to behave.

James Butler returned to Ireland in the summer of 1526.  He returned in 1528 and by this time the king had declared himself, and Anne was no longer on the marriage market.

Information taken from Eric Ive's book, The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn.   

DuchessofBrittany said:

Sharon, that's a great answer, and I learned something new. Thanks!

I often wonder what would have become of Anne had she married James Butler? I cannot imagine such a vivacious and accomplished courtier living happily in isolated solitude in Ireland. Nothing against modern-day Ireland (I'm part Irish, myself), but Ireland in the middle ages was not a nice place to be. Mind you, Anne probably would have lived a long life (and saved her head), but she would have been a footnote in history.

Interestingly enough, James Butler went on to marry Joan Fitzgerald. She was a member of a very important Irish family. When Butler died, she went on to marry Sir Francis Bryan who was Anne Boleyn's cousin and the infamous “Vicar of Hell.” I am always amazed at how closely people were related at the Tudor court. The family trees of aristocratic families were and are so intertwinned. My mind spins when I think about creating those genelogical charts!

I think Anne would have been content with her lot had the marriage taken place.  As long as she considered the match “worthy” and advantageous for herself and for her family, she would have moved forward with it. 

Anyanka said:

La Belle Creole said:

DuchessofBrittany said:

 

I often wonder what would have become of Anne had she married James Butler? I cannot imagine such a vivacious and accomplished courtier living happily in isolated solitude in Ireland. Nothing against modern-day Ireland (I'm part Irish, myself), but Ireland in the middle ages was not a nice place to be. Mind you, Anne probably would have lived a long life (and saved her head), but she would have been a footnote in history.

 

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I think Anne would have been content with her lot had the marriage taken place.  As long as she considered the match “worthy” and advantageous for herself and for her family, she would have moved forward with it.
 

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As marrying up was the only real option of noble ladies of those days, Anne would have been expected to be happy at being married to an earl. And although love rarely entered into aristocratic marriages., I'm sure many couples found mutual respect or love growing between them.
I don't think she would have enjoyed Ireland, though. Anne was used to the cultured atmosphere of European courts. Being in Ireland would have been hard on Anne. If she didn't die in child-birth, I expect she would have ended up as respected matron who did good works and had educated her children to be a credit to her family. I imagine her children would have carved out good careers at the Tudor court.

I find it tough to make a judgment call on whether Anne could be happy with uneventful married life in Ireland.   She was definitely a person who knew how to find opportunities and make the best of them.   If she missed the opulence and culture of court life, I'm sure she would have found alternatives.

LOL … For all we know, Anne might have fared far better in a remote, secluded country estate where she could be a true wife and mother.

However glamorous and interesting Anne's life was, I don't believe she was a particularly happy, fulfilled person.  If nothing else, life as a provincial gentlewoman would have spared her the attacks on her reputation.  Anne was a practical, educated woman and I believe she understood the value differences between a trumped-up marriage to a volatile, unpredictable king and a solid marriage to a respectable gentleman.   

DuchessofBrittany said:

Sharon, that's a great answer, and I learned something new. Thanks!

I often wonder what would have become of Anne had she married James Butler? I cannot imagine such a vivacious and accomplished courtier living happily in isolated solitude in Ireland. Nothing against modern-day Ireland (I'm part Irish, myself), but Ireland in the middle ages was not a nice place to be. Mind you, Anne probably would have lived a long life (and saved her head), but she would have been a footnote in history.

Interestingly enough, James Butler went on to marry Joan Fitzgerald. She was a member of a very important Irish family. When Butler died, she went on to marry Sir Francis Bryan who was Anne Boleyn's cousin and the infamous “Vicar of Hell.” I am always amazed at how closely people were related at the Tudor court. The family trees of aristocratic families were and are so intertwinned. My mind spins when I think about creating those genelogical charts!

Well now I have learned something.  I did not know Joan Fitzgerald married Francis Bryan.  Thanks.  “Vicar of Hell”  I love that title.  I'm sure it is not an endearment.  I have never looked it up to see why they called him that.  Anybody know why?

You are correct Duchess, Cromwell used this expression for Francis Bryan in a letter to the Bishop of Winchester. Bryan, for all his scheming, fell from grace after disputes with Cromwell in 1539, but rose to high position again after Cromwell's demise. He died suddenly in Ireland in 1550 (and probably deserved to – or is that a tad harsh?).

DuchessofBrittany said:

Neil Kemp said:

You are correct Duchess, Cromwell used this expression for Francis Bryan in a letter to the Bishop of Winchester. Bryan, for all his scheming, fell from grace after disputes with Cromwell in 1539, but rose to high position again after Cromwell's demise. He died suddenly in Ireland in 1550 (and probably deserved to – or is that a tad harsh?).

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Thanks, Neil. I don't think Bryan's sudden death was a great loss to society. Unlike all those he sold out, he did not meet the executions axe, and too bad for that. He seemed to be the guy who could do no wrong, despite living such a libertine existence. People like that still exist today, sadly.

Most of them seem to have money/power as well! Still, there are one or two gentlemen around (as I don't have money/power that must include me, I knew there was a plus point somewhere!).