I think looking back over it all that Anne should not have held out so long. If she and Henry really did have this amazing love affair and need for each other a consumation of the relationship may have meant her getting pregnant sooner. By the time she did she was in her thirties and not at her most fertile for the time in history. Her feasible child bearing years were severely diminished. She promised Henry a son but held off for too long.

If she had conceived sooner, Henry would have moved mountains to have a legitimate heir and the whole scenario would have taken less time.

I hope that makes sense. If only she could have had that important son. It is all so sad.

Maggyann said:

I think looking back over it all that Anne should not have held out so long. If she and Henry really did have this amazing love affair and need for each other a consumation of the relationship may have meant her getting pregnant sooner. By the time she did she was in her thirties and not at her most fertile for the time in history. Her feasible child bearing years were severely diminished. She promised Henry a son but held off for too long.

If she had conceived sooner, Henry would have moved mountains to have a legitimate heir and the whole scenario would have taken less time.

I hope that makes sense. If only she could have had that important son. It is all so sad.

You make a good point here Maggyann, however no one can actually be certain of how old Anne actually was when she married Henry. Some Historians state she was in her thirties whilst others state she was still in her twenties, although thinking about it you might be right. Birth records at that time were extremely hotch potch, and it was only really the boy's who were registered, as being heirs to the father's titles etc made them important. Girl children were really just seen as commodities to be used as bargaining counters for policital, monetary wealth and/or ensuring peaceful alliance, much like in the cases of Henry and KOA, and Henry himself married his sister to the aging French king Louis to ensure peace between the 2 countries.. Anyway I digress here (again) Like I said we don't really know how old Anne actually was. or if she wasolder or younger than her sister Mary? I'm inclined to think she was younger than Mary, as Mary died in 1543, at the age of 43/44 as her given date of birth is is circa 1499/1500.

I think you may be right though I feel that she was about 27 or 28, when she finally married Henry, which in Tudor times was quite old.

Would things have been different if she had surrendered to Henry sooner, Hmm that's a tough one.. I think he would have got bored with her quite quickly if she had. Henry in my opinion liked the thrill of the chase, but once he'd caught his prey, it was boring so it was time to move on and got out and find the next victim.. I hope that makes sence too? If Anne had become his mistress would the outcome been different. Well it's possible that she wouldn't have lost her head, but if she had become his mistress, would she have fared better in giving him a son? Possibly.

If she's have given in to Henry I certainly think that she would have got pregnant a few more times, but it was up to mother nature if the pregnacies went to term, as for being a boy well that was down to Henry. It would have certainly put the wind up him if she did have a son, as there would be one hell of a humdinger to legitimate to try and to make sure he got the crown instead of Mary when he died. Although at one point I believe there was talk of Mary marrying her illilgetimate Half Brother Henry Duke of Somerset. Henry's son by Bessie Blount. I think Henry was getting pretty desperate when he proposed that, but I'm not certain but I think KOA was pregnant at the time he proposed it and put it on the back burner to see if KOA could deliver the goos, which of course she didn't.This proposal was dismissed as being unethical anyway.

I think Anne would have been eventually disguarded and married off to someone of suitable rank after a few years if she had of become his mistress, and to be honest I don't think he would have gone as far as he did to make he Queen if she had. I think with Henry it was all talk he just wanted to get into her knickers. Did she do the right thing by holding out so long? In her eyes yes, as I feel that she was as ambitious as the rest of her family,(except Mary) she wanted it all and she was going to get it, whoever she had to get rid of along the way.

In Henry's eyes perhaps not I get the feeling that even before he married her he had started to hate her, maybe because he'd lost Wolsey, who I think he saw as a kindly father figure, and I think deep down he still loved KOA even though she had disappointed him by not giving him a son. I also think that Anne's treatment towards Mary was going a bit OTT, and again he did love Mary. But he was desperate he wanted and needed a son, because his father had told him that a son was the only way to maintain the family lin. KOA was beyond child bearing age if he had to marry Anne to have a son that was legal to inhererit the throne, then he had to marry again simple as.

Anyanka said:

Boleyn said:

Although at one point I believe there was talk of Mary marrying her illilgetimate Half Brother Henry Duke of Somerset. Henry's son by Bessie Blount.

Henry Fitzroy was the Duke of Richmond.

I stand corrected Anyanka I kept being disturbed when I was writing it last night well it was almost 3am here when I was writting it, and Dinosaur was driving me nuts asking me to look up something for him, strangely enough it was to do with Somerset too, so perhaps that why I wrote Somerset instead of Richmond…Grr men ..

Marilyn_24 said:

I think to be honest if i was Anne i would have been scared. Henry was her support net if  you like and without him not many would be on her side. I believe Lady Mary would have become queen and if i was Anne i would have taken Elizabeth and ran. That way i wouldn’t have ended up in the tower. ( this is all of course if henry had died )

Marilyn..

 I am a little confused by your post? Do you mean scared to become his mistress? or do you mean scared by the fact she was his wife?

Henry actually did offer her a sort of way out when she was in the tower awaiting to die. He offered her to give up all rights (I assume this means Elizabeth's claim to throne) and go abroad taking Elizabeth with her. Which of course she told him NO. In this you can see her point, she could have quite easily just packed her bags and fled taking Elizabeth with her, but if she had she would forever be looking over her shoulderfor the assasin. It wouldn't have been safe to leave them alive, and their deaths would go un-noticed, other than perhaps Henry saying to Thomas Boleyn, that he was sorry to hear of the deaths of Anne and Elizabeth from the plague, (and not from an assasins blade), and of course one could never question the King his word was law..

Sorry wrote this in the wrong thread lol i meant if henry had died in the jousting accident

Following Anne's condemnation Cranmer visited her and she agreed to an anullment. Perhaps she was offered her life in exchange, but either way, she died anyway. There is no evidence to suggest that she and Elizabeth were offered a life abroad and that Anne refused. I think that may have been in a film, but it is pure fiction. 

Sharon said:

I don’t remember for sure, and I don’t have my book with me at the moment, but I think in Ive’s book, there is a quote from Anne stating something about “dining in Antwerp tomorrow.”  I think maybe that is where the idea comes from that she may have been promised life.  Perhaps this was just a deceit on Henry’s part to get Anne to agree to the anullment.

Anne certainly thought she may have been saved because she mentioned it to Kingston. She may also have felt she would be safe because she had agreed an anullment. That may have been a false carrot. But she certainly never refused a reprieve by being offered a life abroad for her and Elizabeth. That does come from a film but I can't remember which one. Was it the one where Henry was played by Richard Burton where he visits Anne in the Tower in a completely fictional encounter?

Sharon said:

Yeah, I know.  I’ve never read about the reprieve part either.  I have no idea what movie it came from. Pick one..You’ll probably find it in many of them.  Moviemakers and people in general may have gotten the idea that she was promised freedom because of the statement she made to Kingston. It certainly was a false carrot.  

I've read so many books over the years on Tudor history an obsession that started with me in my early teens I'm 46 now so that's a whole Tudor's lifetime of reading, that i've got to remember.

 But to be fair, I've probably remembered it wrongly anyway, I think it's possible the carrot of life was offered to Anne but she was clever enough to see it for what it was, and told Henry to stuff it. She knew he meant to kill her anyway so it was as it was meant to give her false hope.

 However there could be a element of truth in it, as his behaviour to Anne of Cleves when he went to divorce her was much the same, although of course he couldn't or wouldn't of executed her, as she hadn't done anything wrong other than the fact she wasn't as he hoped she would be. He offered Anne a generous payoff and many manors and houses including Hever Castle as her own, as well as adopting her as his sister. Granted the last bit was a means of making sure she stayed in England and didn't go blubbing to her brother that Henry had ill treated her etc, in short start a war. Even so Henry could have just sent her back to Cleves with only the clothes she stood up in and stuck 2 fingers up at the Duke of Cleves, and taken his chances that if war did happen he could weather the storm and come out victorious. What if Anne had kicked up a fuss and refused to divorce him and in the end the only way he could get rid of her was to behead her too?. No Henry wanted a peaceful solution, and thankfully Anne did too and excepted Henry'sOffer and lived quite happily..

So perhaps this was what he had in mind for Anne Boleyn? It's possible, and what about Katherine Howard did not Cramner question her very closely about her relationship with Derham? Derham mentioned that there was a pre-contract, and that they had slept together on several occations and called each other Husband and wife.. Cramner himself gave Katherine the chance of life by offering this carrot? but one which Katherine didn't see by admitting it meant her life would be spared?  I don't think you can actually put these 3 carrots down to coincidence somehow.

Yes I do believe these chance of life were mentioned in 3 films, and yes films do have a habit of using a little too much poetic licence at times and dressing them up to the point of being unbelievable, but why mention them at all if they weren't loosely based and I mean very loosely based in fact..? 

Elliemarianna said:

Anne was charged with Treason!!! How that could be reprieved I don’t know… The public would be up in arms! She wasn’t only charged with adultery, but wanting the King dead? I know she was innocent, but her charges were far too serious to ever be withdrawn, the only option was death by execution.

This is also true, there could be no way back for Anne she was going to die and that was the end of the matter as far as she and everyone else was concerned, so perhaps the carrot that may have been offered she knew was rubbish.

Even so I do feel that she was offered it, (all this talk of carrots is making me feel hungry). If she had of taken it and purely hypothetical speak here and Henry did repreive her life that would have been between him, Anne and Cromwell, and I'm sure that she would have been spirited away sometime in the night, and a story would have been put about that she had either died at her own hand or had died whilst trying to escape, nobody would have been none the wiser and both Henry and Cromwell would have gone to their graves with the secret..However like I said this is a purely hypotheical situation..But things did happen that simply had no explaination other than the ones given out before,- during and after Tudor times.. The Princes in the Tower, Henry 6th death, and Thomas Overbury's death (although Thomas's murder was questioned and the culprits punished another story and another mystery for another time) but to name just 3 So Anne Boleyn's disappearence from the Tower and from history wouldn't have been questioned, anymore than the Prince's Disappearence or Henry 6th death was. And it is only recently that imformation has come to light to prove what happened to both these mysteries, again 2 more mysteries for another time…