Anyanka said:

Nit-pick time….Rhett refers to Queen Victoria as “the fat Dutch woman” , she was in fact half German on her mother's side and a descendant of the German house of Hanover on her father's side.

Oh Rhett's an incurable racist.  It's one of his less charming traits.  He also calls Gerald O'Hara “a smart Mick on the make.”

Sharon said:

MegC said:

Anyanka said:

Nit-pick time….Rhett refers to Queen Victoria as “the fat Dutch woman” , she was in fact half German on her mother's side and a descendant of the German house of Hanover on her father's side.

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If information was not going to directly and immediately benefit Rhett Butler, he didn't care enough to know it.  I think the point that Mitchell is sort of in a round-about way making in that is that the only “royalty” that Rhett and Scarlett and the like cared about were the upper-crust Southern type.  None of the rest mattered.  And, interestingly, there were distinctions drawn even amongst the Southern cities.  Savannah and Charleston were very old cities and more associated with “old” money whereas Atlanta had more “new” money.  I think Mitchell even mentions at one point that Atlanta was sort of looked down upon by the older cities because of its youth.
As a side note (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), but I have heard that the reason why Sherman did not burn Savannah is that when he got there, he was so struck by its beauty that he couldn't bring himself to do it.  Or maybe it was more advantageous for him to leave it intact since Savannah is the only port city in an otherwise landlocked state (which is probably more the case than the former).

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That's true about Sherman.  He did not burn Savannah.  They say it was because he thought it was a gorgeous city.  But he had already brought Georgia to its knees.  He had made his point.  What a guy! And I mean this in the worst possible way, Bless his heart.

The Union Army had some real darlings for officers.  That's for sure.  I'm shocked that the U.S. has never expressed regret or offered an apology to New Orleans for the infamous Order No. 28 issued during the occupation:

“As the officers and soldiers of the United States have been subjected to repeated insults from the women (calling themselves ladies) of New Orleans, in return for the most scrupulous noninterference and courtesy on our part, it is ordered that hereafter when any female shall, by word, gesture, or movement, insult or show contempt for any officer or soldier of the United States, she shall be regarded and held liable to be treated as a woman of the town plying her avocation.”

In no other occupation or war in its history has the U.S. government supported the concept that female citizens could be charged with prostitution for “insulting or expressing contempt” for its soldiers.

La Belle Creole said:

TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:

MegC said:

@ La Belle Creole:  I agree.  I don't think a publisher would look at GWTW twice today.  Not only because of it's racism, but also because of it's length.

I think MM wrote GWTW by hand while she was recovering from a broken ankle.

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Well, an editor might give it a chance if MM included some kind of apologist social commentary in the narrative.  As you say, it would also have more of a chance if it was shorter.  Scarlett's child-marriage (she was sixteen years old when she married Charles) would have to be adjusted (age change) as well. 

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@MegC — it's astonishing to me how many wrote these massive novels by hand (we have it SO easy these days LOL). And you're right about length as well — as though I did once joke with a friend that I wondered if JK Rowling was being paid by the word (or letter) as one of her Harry Potter books ran nearly 600 pages and most of it felt like filler material that added nothing to the story.
@Le Belle Creole — About Scarlett's child-marriage. Compared to Lady Margaret Beaufort, Scarlett was almost over the hill. Poor Margaret was TWELVE when she was married to the 24-year-old Edmund Tudor! I know it was the 15th century but….

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LOL … Isn't there a part of you that just cringes?   I have an adult niece who's engaged and I'm STILL a bit ambivalent about her approaching wedding.  She's almost 19 and I think that's just too young.  I know I was nowhere near prepared for marriage at age 19. 

My niece was 21 and I thought she was nuts.   My Mom told me to go out and have all my fun before I married.  She said that way you won't have any regrets.   I followed her advice.  I was 26 when I married.  After mumble, mumble years later I can tell you she was so right.

MegC said:

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If information was not going to directly and immediately benefit Rhett Butler, he didn't care enough to know it.  I think the point that Mitchell is sort of in a round-about way making in that is that the only “royalty” that Rhett and Scarlett and the like cared about were the upper-crust Southern type.  None of the rest mattered.  And, interestingly, there were distinctions drawn even amongst the Southern cities.  Savannah and Charleston were very old cities and more associated with “old” money whereas Atlanta had more “new” money.  I think Mitchell even mentions at one point that Atlanta was sort of looked down upon by the older cities because of its youth.
As a side note (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), but I have heard that the reason why Sherman did not burn Savannah is that when he got there, he was so struck by its beauty that he couldn't bring himself to do it.  Or maybe it was more advantageous for him to leave it intact since Savannah is the only port city in an otherwise landlocked state (which is probably more the case than the former).

MegC — I think I remember something in Ken Burns' Civil War series that Sherman thought the city was beautiful, but that may have just been an afterthought on his part.

Interesting you bringing up the point about the distinctions between the old and new cities, old and new money, and the Southern aristocracy, even after the War.

One of the lines that just sends my eyeballs up into the top of my head  is when Rhett tells Scarlett that he intends for Bonnie to have the best and have a place in society. He makes some comment (can't remember it off the top of my head) but to the effect it was that Scarlett had hobnobbed with scalawags and Carpetbaggers and dragged her reputation into the mud. When Scarlett counters with Rhett's own past, he replies with something like “Oh yes, I've had my faults.” (You're waiting for him to add that his sins are nothing like Scarlett's LOL). But he's going to rectify that by the two of them kissing the behinds of every old biddy in the Old Guard.

Which is why to this day I'm very suspicious of the whole “Bonnie sucks her thumb” problem. I wouldn't have put it past Rhett to have told Bonnie to suck her thumb until “Daddy tells you to stop” just so he could ask Mrs. Merriwether and Mrs. Meade for help. (Good grief — if the child WAS sucking her thumb, Mammy would have said something and told how to stop it too LOL).

La Belle Creole said:

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Primogeniture never caught on all that well in the U.S.  Early in its history, Savannah attempted to force primogeniture upon its citizens and had to repeal the law. 

 

Primogeniture was actually very impractical because it essentially enriched one lucky heir while depriving all other heirs.  It made for lots of poor widows and/or orphans. 

I'm glad it didn't catch on and I had no idea about Savannah. What an idiotic archaic load of claptrap. I know I'm assigning my modern outlook on it, but it doesn't even make logical sense. (Jane Austen captured that subject all too well, especially in Sense and Sensibility). But then, neither does bypassing and/or sacrificing a perfectly suitable older daughter in favor of a son when it comes down to inheriting a throne.

TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:

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Oh Rhett's an incurable racist.  It's one of his less charming traits.  He also calls Gerald O'Hara “a smart Mick on the make.”

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Ouch! I do vaguely remember that line. Was that during one of those times when he was telling Scarlett not to put on airs of superiority (I'm supposing because she had some Irish in her background)? Reminds me of Errol Flynn's Essex's snide comment about Elizabeth's “common” Welsh ancestry. These men — I swear….
One of the things I'm going to love about reading GWTW again is that there are things I'll likely pick up on now that I may not have when I was younger. I guess I was once under the mistaken impression that if you were a rich Southerner in before the War, you “ran together” but then I remembered this wasn't always the case. I can't recall their names now, but wasn't there a Scottish landowning family that lived near Tara and the O'Haras looked down on them? (Boy this book is going to bring back some memories).

Rhett told Scarlett Gerald was “a smart Mick on the make” when they argued about Scarlett's responsibility for her poor reputation and how her kids were excluded by the Quality families from children's parties and such because of it.  He was impressed by Ellen's Creole heritage, but not Gerald.

La Belle Creole said:

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Rhett told Scarlett Gerald was “a smart Mick on the make” when they argued about Scarlett's responsibility for her poor reputation and how her kids were excluded by the Quality families from children's parties and such because of it.  He was impressed by Ellen's Creole heritage, but not Gerald.

Oh NOW I remember it. Funny how this stuff is coming back.

Ran across this title while I was getting my Amazon copy of GWTW — any of you familar with it?

http://us.macmillan.com/rhettb…..lerspeople

And I'm going to have to start winding down. This is my last night at work, but because we're shorthanded right now, I'm going to pull a double and work EIGHT HOURS OVERTIME on tomorrow's daywork shift. So at minimum I'll be working 16 straight hours and then will be off for 2 nights. I may be back on later — I'm addicted to this thread LOL but if not, I'll see you all sometime tomorrow!

TinaII2None said:

Oh and I just watched this and forgot to send the link: Tour of Margaret Mitchell House. It's on the website with the book promotion for Rhett Butler's People. One thing I'd forgotten — thankfully. That Scarlett was originally named Pansy in the book Tomorrow is Another Day. Thank God all that changed.

Pansy and Rhett.

 *shudder*

While I agree “Pansy” isn't a good “fit” for Scarlett, the name “Pansy” or other flower names were pretty common in the Antebellum South.  I think Katie Scarlett worked really well for the character specifically because it's an unusual, not traditionally Southern girl's name.  A major theme in GWTW is that Scarlette is NOT a traditional belle and does not mesh well with her social circle. She's more her father's daughter and it frustrates her she doesn't “measure up” to Ellen's genteel, ladylike behavior. 

Anyanka said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04……html?_r=1

 

“I love that time, with the struggles and the way they got through it

all,” Mrs. Sorrow said, trying to explain how a slight interest grew

into full-blown worship. “It just seems like it would have been a

precious time to enjoy being a lady.”

 

 Nearly all periods of history suffers from that. Enjoying being rich and powerful seems to be a common theme in re-enacting some  historical eras. Guess it's just anther version of cosplay prevalent in the amine community.

 

She sews gowns from movie scenes and sells them for $500, taking joy in

seeing the expression on a woman’s face when she puts one on.

 

Wonder how she'd react if some-one wanted a copy of Prissy's dress or Melanie's stained raggy chemise?

I am almost ashamed to admit that this woman doesn't live too far from me.  Maybe when I get a chance I'll pop over to the Marietta GWTW museum.  

“It just seems like it would have been a precious time to enjoy being a lady”????  WTH?!  Nobody in my family was enjoying being a lady in the 1860's, and my family settled in the south LOOOOOONG before Tennessee became a state.  The number of true large plantations in the South before the Civil War was tiny compared to the overall population of the region.  Who does she think she's kidding??

I think I'll call her up and order the dress Scarlett wore when she fled Atlanta…or maybe the one she wears at Tara while picking cotton.  I wonder if she'd charge me $500 for that?