MegC said:

LMAO!!  To his credit, I don't like the character, but Leslie Howard did an admirable job of pulling off Ashley.  I've never paid him much attention, but for some reason it struck me as a good idea to throw GWTW in the DVD player tonight and I've been paying more attention to the actors themselves this time around.  And Clark Gable as Rhett was just superb!  Everything he does just oozes Rhett Butler's nonchalance and arrogance.

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Off from work, but going to run errands today since the weekend is going to be more rain, possibly more hail and thunderstorms and a chance of tornadoes (they've verified that 2 touchdown in Southern Indiana the other day).
I just wanted to quickly comment about Leslie Howard. He wasn't a handsome man in the way of say Errol Flynn or Tyrone Power, but he had a certain elegance to him that made him a favorite of mine as an actor…even when Ashley made me want to slap him silly.

You're right that he pulled off Ashley, although I've read from GWTW behind the scenes, he had come to despise the role by the time it was all over. And he honestly felt himself too old to play the Ashley of the book (he was around 43 when he played the teen-aged ROMEO opposite Merle Oberon's Juliet in 1936 so he was likely 45 or so when he played Ashley).

His Henry Higgins of Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion is nearly more biting than that of Rex Harrison (who joked that he was copying Howard when he did My Fair Lady) and since he drove me up the wall in the part, I figure he did it right! LOL I've seen scenes from Of Human Bondage, in which he plays a sensitive crippled, driven to distraction by a prostitute played by Bette Davis. And very recently, I watched him stand-up to Nazi scumbags in The 49th Parallel — a cameo role in which a U-boat crew is stranded in Canada, and tries to convince Canadians to join their cause in the time before WWII. Howard plays a hunter who runs across the group…and he shows a good deal of courage and patriotism that made me forget all about “the long suffering Mr. Wilkes”. And in reality, while openly working in the fight against Hitler and Nazi Germany, he may or may not have been secretly involved with British Intelligence when his plane was shot down, a tragedy which has led to numerous conspiracy theories. He was such a good friend to Humphrey Bogart that Bogie named a daughter for him.

So I have good memories of Leslie Howard, actor.

Ashley Wilkes — EHHHHHHHHHHH…not so much.

PS: For my maternal grandmother, her favorite Clark Gable role was in Mogambo with Ava Gardner and Grace Kelly…and then Rhett LOL 

Quick correction that came to me while I was taking a nap LOL Merle Oberon played Leslie's wife in The Scarlet Pimpernel; it was Norma Shearer who played Juliet. And she was a great actress, but she wasn't exactly 14 or 15 either.

Must have been the economy version.

MegC said:

Don Corleone would have had the class to just put a hit out on him.  Ashley's always so miserable, he probably would have viewed death as a relief.

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Of all his misery scenes, the one that really made me want to leave him dead on the spot (What do you mean Ashley's committed suicide by shooting himself three or four times? ), was the infamous barn scene when Scarlett offers to run away to Mexico with him…and once again he gives Scarlett the runaround and talks about Gotterdammerung and is just typically Ashley.

Oh yes, yes Scarlett I love you — I can't help loving you, but we have our honor and we just can't leave Melanie and the baby and your father and sisters alone to fend for themselves….Did I mention that I love you though? But our world is over — it's the Twilight of the Gods…but I love you, did I mention that? But we must forget we ever said these words. We'd hurt Melanie.

On and on and on….That scene and the one of him fumbling with the single sock, saying he doesn't know where the other one is and then that he is so lost because Melanie was his world.

*slaps him hard* YOU CAN ACT LIKE A MAN. WASSA MATTER WITH YOU?

TinaII2None said:

MegC said:

Don Corleone would have had the class to just put a hit out on him.  Ashley's always so miserable, he probably would have viewed death as a relief.

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Of all his misery scenes, the one that really made me want to leave him dead on the spot (What do you mean Ashley's committed suicide by shooting himself three or four times? ), was the infamous barn scene when Scarlett offers to run away to Mexico with him…and once again he gives Scarlett the runaround and talks about Gotterdammerung and is just typically Ashley.

Oh yes, yes Scarlett I love you — I can't help loving you, but we have our honor and we just can't leave Melanie and the baby and your father and sisters alone to fend for themselves….Did I mention that I love you though? But our world is over — it's the Twilight of the Gods…but I love you, did I mention that? But we must forget we ever said these words. We'd hurt Melanie.

On and on and on….That scene and the one of him fumbling with the single sock, saying he doesn't know where the other one is and then that he is so lost because Melanie was his world.

*slaps him hard* YOU CAN ACT LIKE A MAN. WASSA MATTER WITH YOU?

You said it perfectly!!  

Ashley (grasping Scarlett by the shoulders):  Oh, Scarlett!  Scarlett!  I love you!  (looking away melodramatically) No, I don't!  (Looking back at Scarlett)  Yes, I do!  I do!!

In the words of Bella Swann, Ashley's moodswings would have given a half-way sane person whiplash.

I just finished the part with the Bazaar, Ellen has found out and written her telling her how ashamed she is, and Gerald is now in Atlanta.  I have to admit that I had completely forgotten about this part of the story!  I guess I just assumed that, like many authors, MM would have just glanced over the repercussions of Scarlett's behavior at the Bazaar.  But I like that she dealt with the situation.  Even though there's a war raging, propriety still must be observed.  Scarlett and Rhett instinctively realize that all their lives are going to change.  But, if you look at her actions, Melanie also realizes that nothing will ever be the same again.  Even though she is proud of Ashley and his efforts at the front, and even though she throws herself willingly behind the Cause, she also realizes that, win or lose, the South will never be the same as it was before the War.  When all the rest of Atlanta is chastising Scarlett for her behavior, Melanie is defending her, not just for the Cause, but also because she recognizes that Scarlett is young, and she even says that things are different during Wars.

At least, that's the vibe I get from her.  

MegC said:

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You said it perfectly!!  
Ashley (grasping Scarlett by the shoulders):  Oh, Scarlett!  Scarlett!  I love you!  (looking away melodramatically) No, I don't!  (Looking back at Scarlett)  Yes, I do!  I do!!

In the words of Bella Swann, Ashley's moodswings would have given a half-way sane person whiplash.

I just finished the part with the Bazaar, Ellen has found out and written her telling her how ashamed she is, and Gerald is now in Atlanta.  I have to admit that I had completely forgotten about this part of the story!  I guess I just assumed that, like many authors, MM would have just glanced over the repercussions of Scarlett's behavior at the Bazaar.  But I like that she dealt with the situation.  Even though there's a war raging, propriety still must be observed.  Scarlett and Rhett instinctively realize that all their lives are going to change.  But, if you look at her actions, Melanie also realizes that nothing will ever be the same again.  Even though she is proud of Ashley and his efforts at the front, and even though she throws herself willingly behind the Cause, she also realizes that, win or lose, the South will never be the same as it was before the War.  When all the rest of Atlanta is chastising Scarlett for her behavior, Melanie is defending her, not just for the Cause, but also because she recognizes that Scarlett is young, and she even says that things are different during Wars.

At least, that's the vibe I get from her.  

I know I've mentioned it before, but from what I've read of Leslie Howard's attitude towards Ashley at that point in the filming, I guess we're lucky we got THAT much emotion. (Supposedly, according to one source, in order to get him to play Ashley, the studio had promised he would get to appear or direct some projects he wanted to do — I think Intermezzo with Ingrid Bergman was one; but to put it mildly he got screwed about so his heart wasn't exactly in a part he already felt too old to be playing. The book also said that the barn scene — when filmed as Vivian's screen test — had such electricity between her and Howard…and it all came missing when it came to filming the actual movie). But he really was in the “Yes I do love you” “No I don't love you” whiplash mode wasn't he?

When I stopped reading the book on Thursday — and being off this weekend I've been busy and relaxing and haven't had a chance to get back to it — Scarlett had arrived in Atlanta, being picked up at the station by Uncle Peter. All of this I had completely forgotten!! I'm thinking mainly of the scene as Scarlett, Prissy and baby Wade are driven through town to Aunt Pitty's, and all of the matrons and such come out to greet her, to ask her to be on the various committees, etc. Most seem honestly glad to see her and you don't get the sense then that she will turn out to be a pain in all their behinds before it's over! As I mentioned before, it was nice to get some missing background on Charles and how the household — with the exception of the slave Uncle Peter — is devoid of masculinity, so it's no wonder Charles grew up to be a “sissy.” I always saw Melanie as the devoted sister. I'm not sure how much help Pittypat was LOL It's sort of a shame Uncle Henry (a character I had completely forgotten) didn't have more influence in his nephew's life, but MM makes that pretty clear as to why that didn't happen.

Now I haven't read the bazaar scene yet Meg, so I am so glad you mentioned that Scarlett does face some consequences for what happened. You'd never know it from the movie. It's 1) she dances at the Bazaar; 2) we see Melanie reading the letter in which Rhett explains about retrieving the wedding rings….then 3) Rhett returns from Paris with a hat for Scarlett and 4) Gettysburg off screen. OF COURSE the word would have gotten back to Tara. Even with the War, it would have been the major gossip for the whole season. (I can still hear Laura Hope Crews' panic in the movie). It wouldn't surprise me if word got all the way to Savannah and Charleston!

You are right about the whole War bringing about change, even if they all believed the South would win. At that point, and this is just from reading GWTW and not depending on actual history, Atlanta seems touched by war only through seeing the injured at the hospitals or soldiers on leave…or by not getting the silks, etc. they are used to having. It's not hurting them yet as we will see later — with Uncle Peter chasing behind that scrawny rooster for the family's Christmas dinner and saying it's the last chicken in Atlanta; the city isn't under siege with cannon fire in the streets. The war they were going to win in a month has already lasted a year (taking Scarlett's 9 months of pregnancy into account). But it is already affecting lives as you said.

And one thing I noticed that I never had before — in the scenes about Scarlett after (as MM says) she is made wife, widow and mother in very short time, we know she was sorry she ever agreed to Charles' proposal, and she's sorry she didn't listen to Ellen telling her to wait. MM also mentions something that years later, when Scarlett looked back on her time with Charles, she could barely remember anything about it since I imagine it was all a haze to her anyway. I thought that mention of Scarlett looking back in time was interesting, and I wonder why I had never noticed it before in previous readings.

I am so far behind on my reading, and I made the mistake of downloading a book on my Kindle that I'm DYING to start, and I'm having a hard time avoiding the temptation :-D.

However, I have read up to Rhett's fall from grace.  I'm not sure that I understand his motivations for his self-destructive behavior, or if he just couldn't bear the charade any longer.

I had never read Ashley's letter to Melanie THAT closely before, but one interesting point that I found was that he wrote that times were changing and that he would never really be able to fit in with the new world, nor did he believe that Melly would be able to, either, because she and he are too much alike.  I feel like this shows that Ashley doesn't know Melly as well as he thinks he does.

Anyway, when I stopped reading Rhett had just brought Scarlett the green bonnet from France in an attempt to lure her out of her pseudo-mourning.  

But I have recently gotten to thinking (and this is so much further into the book than I am now):  Why does Rhett bother to marry Scarlett?  I know he tells her after Frank's death that she's been married to an old man and a boy and that it was time for her to marry someone her own age.  He KNOWS when he marries her that she believes herself to still be in love with Ashley, and it becomes increasingly obvious throughout their marriage that this truly does bother him even though, if he doesn't love her as he claims, it shouldn't.  I have a theory:  I think, for all the years preceding their marriage, Rhett had tried to SHOW Scarlett how he was, truly, the better choice for her.  When it was apparent that this wasn't working, he figured the only way to show her was to just marry her.  Just as Scarlett believes that she would change Ashley if they were to marry, Rhett is guilty of the same thing, essentially. 

MegC said:

I am so far behind on my reading, and I made the mistake of downloading a book on my Kindle that I'm DYING to start, and I'm having a hard time avoiding the temptation :-D.
 

However, I have read up to Rhett's fall from grace.  I'm not sure that I understand his motivations for his self-destructive behavior, or if he just couldn't bear the charade any longer.
 

I had never read Ashley's letter to Melanie THAT closely before, but one interesting point that I found was that he wrote that times were changing and that he would never really be able to fit in with the new world, nor did he believe that Melly would be able to, either, because she and he are too much alike.  I feel like this shows that Ashley doesn't know Melly as well as he thinks he does.
 

Anyway, when I stopped reading Rhett had just brought Scarlett the green bonnet from France in an attempt to lure her out of her pseudo-mourning.  
 

But I have recently gotten to thinking (and this is so much further into the book than I am now):  Why does Rhett bother to marry Scarlett?  I know he tells her after Frank's death that she's been married to an old man and a boy and that it was time for her to marry someone her own age.  He KNOWS when he marries her that she believes herself to still be in love with Ashley, and it becomes increasingly obvious throughout their marriage that this truly does bother him even though, if he doesn't love her as he claims, it shouldn't.  I have a theory:  I think, for all the years preceding their marriage, Rhett had tried to SHOW Scarlett how he was, truly, the better choice for her.  When it was apparent that this wasn't working, he figured the only way to show her was to just marry her.  Just as Scarlett believes that she would change Ashley if they were to marry, Rhett is guilty of the same thing, essentially. 
 

Sorry to hear you're behind Meg, but believe me, I understand. We are starting Derby Week in Louisville (the big day is next Saturday), which means our department will be even busier than usual. But I hope to keep up my own reading during commutes and spare moments.
 

I just wanted to tell you that YOU have thrown out some fascinating ideas and I love your answer to your own question — why did Rhett marry Scarlett. Seems that my grandmother, mother and I discussed that but I'm not sure we came up with anything (although your ideas sound like something my mom, rest her soul, would have thought of). I always puzzled over that too. Why the heck would you marry a woman when you know she supposedly has no feelings for you, but we humans are a complicated bunch of creatures. But it's an interesting premise.
 

In their final scene together — as far as the movie I should add — remember that Rhett tells her that he wanted to spoil her, etc. I guess in the way he had Bonnie. Even earlier, when they visit Tara, out of love he tells her to remake the plantation as it was before the War. You can see the delight in her eyes…and Rhett has no qualms about asking for a big new house in Atlanta to make everyone that's been mean to her “pea green with envy.” He is like an indulgent father or lover — why sure, you go ahead and make it as big and gaudy as you like! LOL But one of the more tender moments (not sure if it's in the book or not) was when Scarlett had that nightmare and Rhett is there to calm her. I think…no, we know he honestly loves her at that moment. And yes, he does believe he can or HAS changed her — until that scene in the movie when he comes to her bedroom, says he can have his dinner brought up, he is being very loving…and then Scarlett drops the bombshell that she doesn't want any more children. You see that concern on his face. He thinks it's health issues…and then he steps on that frame containing that photo of the long-suffering Mr. Wilkes. He's hurt, he still loves her…but now it's all back to being snide, cynical and ready for battle. **(SIDE-NOTE: I mentioned this before in another thread, but a making of book says that there was an office scene in which Ashley dangles the old carrot again and Scarlett believes she has a chance.
 

As for Rhett's self-destruction — yes, dropping the charade makes sense and the man is the type not to give a hoot what anybody thinks. It just tickles me that — in the movie — he behaves as though Scarlett's sins have been much worst than his when it comes to repenting for Bonnie! LOL

If I had read Ashley's letter before, I completely forgot it. (Tends to happen — we're talking about Ashley here LOL). That was why it fascinated me that MM detailed it and analyzed it (through Scarlett's eyes) so thoroughly. And we do get to the heart of Ashley — he is afraid of the change, and as you added, fears that Melanie is or will be too. Melanie, as we see from the movie at least, remains a sweet and loving woman…but she is the stronger of the two and she was as much on the battlefield as was Ashley, and she obvioiusly held it all together. Ashley can't even find a friggin' sock when she's dead. He puts their son to bed when the child complains “Why do I have to go to bed when it's not even night?” What is Ashley's reply? “It is nighttime” — or something like that. Yep, for him it is night. It's been night for him from the moment war was even hinted at. I'm not calling him a coward — he obviously showed bravery in the field. I'm talking about his soul. He's stuck in time and has no interest in changing; okay, I won't be too mean on him and just say that maybe he can't.

And I think I've just talked more about Ashley Wilkes than I ever thought possible! LOL

I completely believe that Rhett probably calls her Mrs. Brady instead of Bixby–exactly like calling Queen Victoria Dutch.  Who knows?  MM probably heard the story from someone who lived during the War who may or may not have remembered the correct name.  Or it may be her making the point that if it didn't pertain directly to the him, Rhett wasn't incredibly interested in the correct details.

I admire authors who are able to so clearly articulate the demeanors and mannerisms and personalities of their characters.  Sometimes you read a book and it seems like an author paints his/her characters into a conversational corner and so one of the characters winds up saying something that is completely out of the ordinary, but I never get the impression that MM was ever at a loss for words during her dialogues between Scarlett and Rhett.  Scarlett's dialogue is actually pretty easy, if you think about it, because she can always just say “Fiddle-dee-dee” or call Rhett a cad or vile and that gets her out of a lot.  Rhett's dialogue, though, is quite a bit more complicated and it would have been easy for MM to have gotten herself stuck, but there's an easy flow to her conversations that seem so natural and truthful and believable.

MegC said:

I completely believe that Rhett probably calls her Mrs. Brady instead of Bixby–exactly like calling Queen Victoria Dutch.  Who knows?  MM probably heard the story from someone who lived during the War who may or may not have remembered the correct name.  Or it may be her making the point that if it didn't pertain directly to the him, Rhett wasn't incredibly interested in the correct details.

I admire authors who are able to so clearly articulate the demeanors and mannerisms and personalities of their characters.  Sometimes you read a book and it seems like an author paints his/her characters into a conversational corner and so one of the characters winds up saying something that is completely out of the ordinary, but I never get the impression that MM was ever at a loss for words during her dialogues between Scarlett and Rhett.  Scarlett's dialogue is actually pretty easy, if you think about it, because she can always just say “Fiddle-dee-dee” or call Rhett a cad or vile and that gets her out of a lot.  Rhett's dialogue, though, is quite a bit more complicated and it would have been easy for MM to have gotten herself stuck, but there's an easy flow to her conversations that seem so natural and truthful and believable.

When I pick up the book later today, I'll double-check the last name and see then let you all know.

I love the comments about Rhett not being particularlyinterested in things that had nothing directly to do with him. For a man who considered himself so superior to many of the others, he could often be incredibly silly about things.

You are so right about the dialogue, attitudes, etc. of the characters, and how she even pays attention to the protagonists, the supporting characters and even the lesser ones.  The Tarletons have more depth than they were given in the movie (likely due to time restraints); I am amazed about Uncle Peter, someone who — as I've mentioned before — is a slave but still behaves as the man of a household that he nearly runs with an iron fist (whereas in the movie, the great Eddie “Rochester” Anderson is reduced to little more than shouting at Belle or chasing after the last rooster in Atlanta); even Aunt Pitty, who appears as little more than a stupid, childish comic foil in the film, is more three-dimensional in the novel. Mammy — I love how she tells Scarlett what she doesn't want to hear (“I don't see Mr. Ashley asking for to marry you”…or something like that LOL). Sometimes I'm afraid that novelists and screenwriters often set up straw men characters so that through them either all of their opinions can be launched, or — as you mentioned Meg about them being “painted into a controversial corner” — Straw Man #1 says his/her piece, stays silent because the writer has created Straw Man #2 who spends a page or two with an opposing argument. That's not reality — that's a two man show and not a very good one! 

That may be why MM's writing has stayed with me most of my life. There aren't a lot of writers that do, even among the great ones. (It's times like that when I'm grateful for movie and miniseries adapatations LOL).

Good morning all! Boy ended up sleeping later than I intended – – and I go back to work tonight. (Where the heck do these off days go?)

Anyway, first thing I did (after getting coffee) was starting changing my tote bags out and I grabbed up my copy of GWTW. Rhett got it right — it IS Mrs. Bixby! (I may have been reading so quickly that I saw it as Brady because Bixby isn't that common a surname). So I apologize — I got it wrong, not Rhett!  (Hey, I'm not the one who called Victoria Dutch! LOL) Here's the context:

“Oh Captain Butler, isn't there some way — Can't you use your influence and have him exchanged?” cried Melanie.

“Mr. Lincoln, the merciful and just, who cries large tears over Mrs. Bixby's five boys, hasn't any tears to shed about the thousands of Yankees dying at Andersonville,” said Rhett, his mouth twisting. “He doesn't care if they all die. The order is out. No exchanges.”

Now I won't argue Rhett's complete comment about the POW policy of 1863, but anyway, there you go.

Happy reading everyone.