Hannah:

Good point. I have heard more than one guy complaining about arguing with his girlfriend or wife that tears were unfair, or emotional blackmail.

Katharine was indeed a proud woman – the daughter of Isabella and Ferdinand, who had accomplished so much in their time as monarchs of what is now the unified Spain. She had a long history of great achievements to look back on, and in addition, she had been raised, probably since the day she was born, to be a representative of that long history, and to hold her head up.

Impish Impulse:

Yep, Henry struck me, in every account I have read of him when the whole “Great Matter” started, as a spoiled brat. On the other hand, he was KING, the highest authority in England under God. Other than God, who had the authority to tell him no? Who else could take him to task about his behavior? Certainly not a “mere woman” even though that “mere woman” was his own wife of twenty something years.

I agree, too, that Katharine had every right to her pride; she was born of a powerful, effective royal house. Henry, however, could not see past his own pride to understand this, I don't think.

Sharon:

“Reasonable Man” and “King Henry VIII” might just be another oxymoron to add to the list, up there with “Jumbo Shrimp” and “Government Work.”

The very qualities that drew them together in the first place – their religious piety, their royal heritage, their proper behavior (due to pride) now worked so heavily against them in this “Great Matter.” Unfortunately, Henry and Katharine were too much alike in this case. Had their roles been reversed, I honestly don't think Henry would have behaved any differently, in thwarting Katharine's attempts to divorce him by any means.

I loved this statement by Karen Lindsay regarding Katharine of Aragon:

“If Katharine of Aragon had been the first, rather than fifth daughter, she might be remembered, not as the discarded consort of a marriage addicted King, but as the powerful Queen Regnant of Spain, following in the footsteps of her formidable mother and altering the course of sixteenth century history. Unlike her sister Juana, who was cheated out of the throne, Katharine had much of Isabella's steely purposefulness and intellect.”

Sabrina:

You are probably right – along with the others – that more gentlemanly behavior on Henry's part might would not have made much of a difference. Katharine saw marriage as a holy sacrament, and something that could only be put asunder by death or direct order of God Himself. There was also the matter of pride, that she, a Spanish Infanta, was not going to step aside quietly, especially in favor of an upstart social climber – not my view of Anne Boleyn, but it may very well have been how she was seen by Katharine and her supporters.

The difference in the outcomes of the lives of Katharine of Aragon and Anne of Cleves, however, lay in the fact that Katharine truly and deeply loved Henry, where Anne did not.

But you make an excellent point – to judge by his behavior when Anne of Cleves allowed the divorce proceedings to go ahead without impediment, he probably would have maintained a very good relationship with Katharine.

I think we all agree, however, that his treatment of Mary was beneath contempt. Mary, like many children caught in the middle of a rancorous divorce, suffered terribly. She loved her mum and dad, and did not want to take sides. How do you tear your own heart in two? The whole thing “unlawful marriage” and bastardy, too, would have been a terrible blow to Mary's own pride, especially considering, up to this point in her life, Henry had doted upon her, and she had been raised to be a proud Princess of England, daughter of Henry and Katharine, granddaughter of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York, as well as granddaughter of Isabella and Ferdinand of Spain.

Bella:

No peace for Henry from all the wives and kids? Even more fitting than sending him to hell.

Claire:

It's interesting, thinking about what you are writing here, about Katharine not wanting to agree to this divorce, which would make him a bigamist and adulterer.

She was older than Henry by about six years, and had to recognize that he was immature. Could it have been that she felt protective of him, not only as a wife, but also in kind of a motherly fashion? After all, he lost his mother, and was still in need of the guidance of someone who looked out for his greater welfare to protect him from himself and those who might take advantage of his immaturity. She was also, obviously, concerned not only for his physical wellbeing, but also for his immortal soul.

I cannot read that last letter from Katharine to Henry without getting misty eyed. She summed herself up very neatly, and without any anger at the treatment she received from Henry. The very last line itself is making me weepy as I put it down here:

“Lastly, I make this vow, that mine eyes desire you above all others.

Katharine, Queen of England.”

I hope he was physically ill when he read that letter, realizing that he he had been a TOTAL bastard to her and Mary – bastard in the sense of a mean spirited, unpleasant person. To judge by how it took Jane Seymour's influence to get him to even acknowledge Mary again, I would say he probably did not.

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Fellow members, wow, I love this topic! I am so glad to have been able to talk to you about this. This was, as stated, a “What If” – oh, if only it were possible to have some sort of way to go back in time and advise Henry on some things, especially considering how he is viewed today. LOL, I wonder if he would try a different tack with Katharine, if he saw that the world now sees him as nothing but a bloated, tyrannical misogynist?