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9:41 am
February 24, 2010
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I have just started reading Elizabeth's Women, by Tracy Borman. In chapter one, 'Mother', Ms. Borman is giving a description of the rooms being prepared for the birth of Anne's first child, Elizabeth. She then speaks to the concern about the survival of the child and how frought with danger childbirth was to both mother and child. This is what she writes:
“Worse still, Anne's closest female relations had suffered an unfortunate history in this respect. Her mother had lost several babies in infancy, and her sister, Mary, had borne a son with mental disabilities whom Anne would not suffer to be at court.” (pg. 18)
What child of Mary's had mental disabilities? This is news to me. Mary had borne Henry Carey and Catherine Carey by this time. I do not recall Henry Carey having a mental disability. Was there another child which I have not read anything about?
1:38 am
November 23, 2010
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Hi Sharon, this is very interesting and intreging information. I dont know much about Mary Boleyns children to be honest, but this thread has now caused me to go looking what I can find on the internet.
I have read that Mary had 2 children “by Henry”, Catherine & Henry Carey, this we know. She married Sir William Stafford and also had 2 children by him – Anne & Edward Stafford. I read that Edward Stafford lived from 1535 – 1545, maybe he was the child with mental disabilities?
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12:54 pm
February 24, 2010
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Ms. Borman states that Anne's mother and her sister had suffered an unfortunate history and it was one of Anne's many worries as she prepared for the birth of Elizabeth. This led me to believe that she was saying Mary had already had a child that Anne would not suffer to be at court because of a mental disability.
When William Carey died in 1528, Anne took wardship of Henry and Catherine Carey. Anne sent Henry to the best schools. The children saw their mother frequently until Mary married Stafford. I still have no idea what Borman is talking about.
Elizabeth, of course, was born in 1533. Mary married Stafford in 1534. The Stafford boy, Edward, was born 1535. I could not find a date for the girl, Anne, but it shows her as being born before Edward. So, I don't think Borman is speaking of the children who came after Elizabeth was born.
9:43 pm
January 9, 2010
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I puzzled over that little snippet too Sharon and I still haven't been able to figure it out satisfactorily. The closest i can come up with is Anne's mother and Mary suffering miscarriages/still-births/infant deaths but aside from Anne's mother losing at least two children in infancy I haven't come across any other author who called their history “unfortunate.”
That aside, I thought it was a great read, very informative and detailed, especially the part on Anne's influence on Elizabeth 
10:09 am
February 24, 2010
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I know. I'm moving on and enjoying the book, but that really bugged me. When Borman called the miscarriages unfortunate, she was giving an opinion. However, when she said Mary had a mentally disabled child, she was stating it as fact.
It is an interesting book, and I do love how she points out Anne's influence on Elizabeth's life. Not many historians bother with it. When trying to put the pieces of Elizabeth's life together, it is important for me to know that her mother did have an important role in her life.
1:35 pm
December 17, 2009
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Hello
I was intrigued by what you mentioned Sharon so decided to dig a little deeper. I found a contact email on Tracy's website and asked if she could elaborate further. This is her reply:
—————————————————————————————————————
so I can't check where the reference came from about Mary Boleyn's
son. I do know, however, that it was hearsay about her having a son
with mental disabilities. There was almost certainly no date of birth
and probably few further details, as most of Mary's life (and
offspring) remain subject to conjecture.
biography of Mary Boleyn this autumn. She has done extensive research
into her life and children, so I'm sure that book will be of interest
to you.
1:56 pm
January 9, 2010
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Thank you for your investigations Sarah!
Dang, I'd love to know more about Mary's mysterious son, never having come across that particular rumour before. I am though looking forward to the Alison Weir book, so maybe she'll be able to shed more light. Hopefully it'll be better than the Josephine Wilkinson bio on Mary as it seemed Mary herself was strangely absent for good portions of that book.
2:19 pm
October 31, 2010
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My jaw hit the floor when you quoted that section as I had never read anything like that in anything else. However, if Henry was Hank VIII's child and he did have some kind of mental disability, then that might explain why Henry never legitimized him and recognized him as his son.
While the death of a child is always unfortunate, I was never under the impression that the Boleyn women were any more unfortunate in this respect than most other women. Describing it in the way she did makes it seem much more melodramatic than the situation really was–people's view of death was much more robust back then. And while Anne did suffer her share of miscarriages, there were loads of factors which probably contributed to these miscarriages. Henry's age, her age, their diet which, while better than the average person's diet, still wasn't fantastic, random illnesses, etc.
Anyway, I hope Allison Weir's biography can perhaps put to rest this rather unusual question.
"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"
2:01 pm
February 24, 2010
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SarahD, I thank you for the info. If it was hearsay, she should have stated it as such and should not have thrown it out there as though it were fact. I had never heard anything like that before in regards to Mary.
There is so much written about Mary's son Henry. He was in high favor and trusted during Elizabeth's reign. I doubt that would be true if he was mentally disabled. And Anne would not have been able to send him to the finest schools had that been the case. Henry didn't recognise Mary's children as his own because she was married at the time; and there would have always been doubt as to which one, the husband or the king, was the father. I know there is still doubt, but better to doubt the husband than to doubt the king.
When Ms Borman was writing about the miscarriages of Anne's mother and the problems Mary had, she was speaking of the inner turmoil Anne herself may have been going through. Questioning whether she would have the same types of problems. That seems natural enough for me. Anne probably was worried about all the things that could go wrong with her pregnancy.
6:25 am
June 7, 2010
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I've not read Borman's book yet, but as I was reading this thread, I got to thinking. I hate when writers (any writer) write things as fact, even when they aren't. Then, expect the readers to be able to decipher the difference between explict fact and heresay. I find it sometimes takes away from the book's arguments because I begin to question everything else the author has written. I am speaking of my own experince of writing my Master's thesis. My supervisor freaked out everytime I wrote something not deemed as fact. Otherwise, I would have to place a footnote for further information.
"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn
9:51 am
February 24, 2010
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Duchess, you hit the nail on the head. I am having a hard time with this book now because I really don't trust what I'm reading at this point. I don't mind gossip when reading fiction, but when I pick up a history book, I expect facts and not conjecture. And if it is conjecture, I expect a note telling me so. I'm anxious to see if Weir brings this up and can back it up, in her biography of Mary.
4:03 am
August 12, 2009
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Sharon said:
Duchess, you hit the nail on the head. I am having a hard time with this book now because I really don't trust what I'm reading at this point. I don't mind gossip when reading fiction, but when I pick up a history book, I expect facts and not conjecture. And if it is conjecture, I expect a note telling me so. I'm anxious to see if Weir brings this up and can back it up, in her biography of Mary.
Except that Weir is one of the worst for repeating stale, disproved rumors and being vague when citing her sources.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
10:13 am
February 24, 2010
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Yep, that's a problem.
10:12 pm
January 9, 2010
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Impish_Impulse said:
Except that Weir is one of the worst for repeating stale, disproved rumors and being vague when citing her sources.
That, sadly, is true. Also I'm wondering if there really is enough documented evidence on Mary to warrant a full scale stand-alone biography. That's where I think the other recent book on her failed.
10:24 pm
November 18, 2010
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http://www.genealogymagazine.c…..oleyn.html
cwen posted this link over in this thread
http://www.theanneboleynfiles……her/#p5634
One of the writer's claims is that Carey marriage was sexless since there were only the 2 children whom were fathered by H8. I have several problems with this hypothesis. Mainly lack of children doesn't equal lack of intercourse.
It's always bunnies.
1:51 am
August 12, 2009
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Anyanka said:
One of the writer's claims is that Carey marriage was sexless since there were only the 2 children whom were fathered by H8. I have several problems with this hypothesis. Mainly lack of children doesn't equal lack of intercourse.
There's also the possibility that Carey was indeed the father of both children.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
1:05 pm
February 24, 2010
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This is from the geneology magazine site above. If I read this correctly, the writer claims Mary never went to France until 1520 With Katherine for the Field of Cloth of Gold and again in 1532 with Anne. BTW, Francis I should talk? What is the appropriate title for a male wh*re? 
Lady Mary BoleynLady Mary Boleyn (sometimes known as Lady Mary Rochford). Although her age and seniority are controversial, I subscribe to the view that she was the elder daughter and that she was probably born about 1500-04.8 Lady Mary was married (first) on 4 February 1519/20 to William Carey, born about 1496, died 22 June 1528.9 It is now established that if was Anne Boleyn, and not her sister Mary, who lived at the Flemish and French courts as a child. Mary (Boleyn) Carey probably first met King Francis I of France at the “Field of Cloth of Gold” in June 1520 where, as the newly married “Mistress Carey,” she attended Queen Katherine. It was either from this occasion or from a later meeting in 1532 (when Mary, as a widow and the cast-off mistress of Henry VIII, visited France with the English court) that Francis I (as restated by Ridolfo Pio) said that he had known her “as a great wh*re and more notorious than all others.”10 Lady Mary (Boleyn) Carey was married (second) by 1534 to (later: Sir) William Stafford, born by 1512, died 5 May 1556 at Geneva, Switzerland. Lady Mary died 19 July 1543.11
In the fifth paragraph this writer claims that Henry suspected Mary of carrying another man's child. He claims Henry said this at the time of William Carey's death in June 1528. If this is true, and that's a big if, this might be the child who was born with a mental disability. Proof? Where's the proof? 
3:40 pm
November 18, 2010
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Impish_Impulse said:
Anyanka said:
One of the writer's claims is that Carey marriage was sexless since there were only the 2 children whom were fathered by H8. I have several problems with this hypothesis. Mainly lack of children doesn't equal lack of intercourse.
There's also the possibility that Carey was indeed the father of both children.
True. I had meant to write
One of the writer's claims is that Carey marriage was sexless since there were only the 2 children whom were supposedly fathered by H8.
It's always bunnies.
4:41 pm
November 18, 2010
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Sharon said:
This is from the geneology magazine site above. If I read this correctly, the writer claims Mary never went to France until 1520 With Katherine for the Field of Cloth of Gold and again in 1532 with Anne. BTW, Francis I should talk? What is the appropriate title for a male wh*re?
I read it that way too.
Most terms refering to men sleeping around are positive, Stud or Player come to mind. Even Gigolo is not as negative. The only term that comes close to would be Rent Boy but really refer more to the homoexual context of the word.
It's always bunnies.
8:56 pm
November 18, 2010
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Sharon said:
What child of Mary's had mental disabilities?
Carolly Erickson`s novel The Last Wife of Henry VIII mentiions that MAry`s son ( no name given ) by H8
a poor wretched creature without wits who could hardly speak and who had to be kept out of sight lest he bring shame on his parents.
page 302.
It's always bunnies.
