Sharon said

I was reading FB when this whole thing got started. The Tudor Tutor FB page, was questioning a statement in Weir’s book The Children of Henry VIII. In it she states there that, about 2 months before the boy died, physicians “installed a female quack who claimed she could cure the king. With Northumberland’s blessing, she began giving Edward daily doses of a potion that almost certainly contained arsenic” and “By 2 July, the king was suffering agonies as a result of arsenical poisoning.” Barb goes on to say that she looked in the back of the book to find the source of this quote, but she found nothing which she said was normal.

Then, to my surprise, Alison made an appearance. Weir claimed that her editor/publisher wouldn’t allow her to reference in her earlier books, but since 1998 she has been doing that. I thought, really? I dug out my books. The books I have of hers were written within the last 10 years. When I read a nonfiction book, I expect to be able to go to the back of the book, and find the exact source the author used to make his/her point. Then I can go to that source and read it for myself. Weir puts L&P, yes, but Letters and papers is huge. Where in L&P? That’s just one example. SC another. Where in Spanish Calendar? Loades, The Tudor Queens of England. Come on. It would be nice if she would complete the source. Her references are sketchy and incomplete at best.

I have read that all sorts of pills, potions and cure all remedies were used to try and cure Little Eddy. Including one from a so called healer which involved strapping 2 freshly caught trout to his feet and as they rotted they were suppose to draw all the ill humours from his body and he would be well again “shudders” the very thought of that makes me feel ill. Not to mention the smell, the bucket would certainly be on standby, I think..

I believe that Arsenic was quite widely used in medicants of that time, not realising the damage it actually causes to a body with prolonged useage..
Victorian ladies soaked fly papers which contained arsenic in warm water, and used it a rinse for their faces believing it gave them a youthful glow etc, again with prolonged use all they were doing is 1 poisoning themselves and 2 causing untold damage to their skin..
Elizabeth was a known advocate of using white lead powder usually mixed with some scented oil (probably Lavender as she was very fond of Lavender) to cover the pox scars she had, although it made her appear as if she was made of marble, it was also causing untold damage to her skin and of course her hair also suffered because of it, and it came out in clumps although her illness probably didn’t help much either so much so that she had to wear bright orange wigs of some very elaborant designs, none of which could have been humanily possible to do on a human head. I also believe that Elizabeth had a model head fashioned for use with her portraits, as she didn’t like to sit for hours doing nothing, plus she didn’t want the artist to paint as she really was. I’m not sure but I believe the Amarda Portrait is one of the times (and there were many) that the model head was used..
I do feel that footnotes are important especially when it comes to quoting factual refences in a non factual book. It gives the reader a chance of wanting to read the evidence for themselves..

There’s also the fact that if you want to fudge issues or inaccurately quote extant sources to make your point then it’s nice to be able to hide behind your publisher to avoid having to accurately reference your supposed sources.

forgot to mention Clysters as well, (more commonly know as purges or laxitives) I believe Henry had to have them adminstered towards the end of his life, Basically from what I can gather they were adminstered by a horn being placed into your fundimentd throught which a concoction of different drugs depending on which doctor you went to or in Henry’s case (being Dr Butts) pours down the horn into your bowels, the horn was removed and the drugs left to do their work. I suspect the waiting courteirs were told to stand well back and hold their noses.
This was also considered a safe way of killing someone as there would be no sign of anything untoward left on the body..
Thomas Overbury was poisoned by Frances Carr (nee Howard ,those damned howards were a lethal bunch) and her cohort Anne Turner, thankfully he recovered thanks to the dilligence of the tower warden’s wife, but when Thomas Overbury became ill again it was decided that a clyster should be adminstered to purge his body of ill humours. Unfortunatly for him the doctor who had adminstered it was bribed a great deal of money to adminster a poisonous subtance instead and he died. Hid death would have gone un-noticed if not for a number of mistakes made by Frances Carr and Anne Turner. (Anne Turner made the yellow ruff popular but the trend died out after she was hung, wearing a yellow ruff) Frances and her Husband Robert Carr were inprisoned and sentenced to death, but James the 1st pardoned both and they were released and lived out their lives in unhappy obscurity away from court.
This horn horn was also used to killed poor unfortunate Edward 2nd at Berkley Castle. again into his fundament was thrust a horn through which was passed a fire brand (RED hot poker) which was rolled back and forth to burn his entrails so that no sign of injury could be perseived outwardly. He died in agony, and his ghostly dying screams are said to echo through the castle to this day..

Boleyn said

Thomas Overbury was poisoned by Frances Carr (nee Howard ,those damned howards were a lethal bunch) and her cohort Anne Turner, thankfully he recovered thanks to the dilligence of the tower warden’s wife, but when Thomas Overbury became ill again it was decided that a clyster should be adminstered to purge his body of ill humours. Unfortunatly for him the doctor who had adminstered it was bribed a great deal of money to adminster a poisonous subtance instead and he died. Hid death would have gone un-noticed if not for a number of mistakes made by Frances Carr and Anne Turner. (Anne Turner made the yellow ruff popular but the trend died out after she was hung, wearing a yellow ruff) Frances and her Husband Robert Carr were inprisoned and sentenced to death, but James the 1st pardoned both and they were released and lived out their lives in unhappy obscurity away from court.
This horn horn was also used to killed poor unfortunate Edward 2nd at Berkley Castle. again into his fundament was thrust a horn through which was passed a fire brand (RED hot poker) which was rolled back and forth to burn his entrails so that no sign of injury could be perseived outwardly. He died in agony, and his ghostly dying screams are said to echo through the castle to this day..

Wow! I didn’t know about some of this!

Also, you know that in Alison Weir’s book, about Queen Isabella, Edward II’s wife, didn’t have Edward killed at Berkley Castle, but he escaped at spent the rest of his life as a hermit. Does she ever give her sources for this supposition?

black_mamba said
Wow! I didn’t know about some of this!

Also, you know that in Alison Weir’s book, about Queen Isabella, Edward II’s wife, didn’t have Edward killed at Berkley Castle, but he escaped at spent the rest of his life as a hermit. Does she ever give her sources for this supposition?

Black mamba,
In Weir’s nonfiction book, Queen Isabella, she does refer to a letter written by a priest, Manuel de Fieschi that claims Edward escaped Berkeley, went to Corfe, traveled to Ireland, Normandy, Languedoc, Avignon, visited the Pope, then Paris, and ended his days in Milan, Italy, in a hermitage, but later moved to another hermitage in Pavia. Fieschi signed the letter as a notary of the Lord Pope. The letter is undated. She gives the pros and cons with ifs and maybes thrown in. Yep, she mentions it and sources it. Did she write a fictional book about Isabella? I know a while ago I read a book where Edward escaped to Italy and Isabella sent him funds, but I do not remember the author.

Thanks Sharon for the info! I had never read the book, but heard about the theory, and was wondering from what source she had taken her story.

I agree Boleyn. I don’t think Isabella would have left Edward alive. She probably didn’t want to have to execute him, (being a king and all) but after the failed escape attempt, you really can’t have a living deposed king just hanging around in the wings…
Catrherine the Great faced a similar situation when she deposed her husband, Peter.
What an awful death for Edward, though….

The Stewart/Stuart line really had some bad luck. The “melancholy” that seems to have been suffered by many Stewarts can be traced to King Robert Stewart III. Robert III ended his reign as a depressed, self-hating old man. It is said that he wanted to be buried under a dunghill, instead of a traditional royal grave.
King James I (Robert III’s son) was assasinated on 21 Feb 1437. James I’s son, James II “The Fiery Face” died when a cannon exploded during his campaign against the Black Douglas’s. James III and James IV died in battle. James V died of “melancholy”. Now, how someone dies of melancholy, I have no idea. Then you get Mary, Queen of Scots. So, yes, the Stewarts seemed to have some bad luck…

Boleyn said

black_mamba said

The Stewart/Stuart line really had some bad luck. The “melancholy” that seems to have been suffered by many Stewarts can be traced to King Robert Stewart III. Robert III ended his reign as a depressed, self-hating old man. It is said that he wanted to be buried under a dunghill, instead of a traditional royal grave.
King James I (Robert III’s son) was assasinated on 21 Feb 1437. James I’s son, James II “The Fiery Face” died when a cannon exploded during his campaign against the Black Douglas’s. James III and James IV died in battle. James V died of “melancholy”. Now, how someone dies of melancholy, I have no idea. Then you get Mary, Queen of Scots. So, yes, the Stewarts seemed to have some bad luck…

Not forgetting that poor James 6th scotland/1st England grew up with the knowledge that his own father had been slain in a very brutal manner too. In fact as he grew older he became mortally afraid of being murdered himself, so wore thick padded doublets which always mae him appear as being fat when in fact he wasn’t . James was also lived in far of witchcraft, this is to do with one of Shakespeare’s plays, Known as the Scottish play in which the witches foretell of a king’s death by foul means of witchcraft I believe, it’s a long time since I read it. But either way James didn’t really escape the struats curse he lived and died a natural death but his whole live he must have lived like a cat on a hot tin roof jumping from place to place just to find somewhere dark and cool to hide. James was known as the wisest fool in christendom.

Very true Boleyn! But, you can understand his paranoia.
“It’s not paranoia when people are actually out to get you.”

You know, Robert the Bruce’s daughter, Marjorie, was thrown from a horse while she was very heavily pregnant.

Princess Marjorie went out riding near Paisley while heavily pregnant. Her horse, taking fright at something, reared up, Marjorie was thrown violently to the ground and immediately went into premature labour. Her only child, the future Robert II, was delivered at the roadside by Caesarean section (the first authentic record of such an operation being performed since the birth of the eponymous Julius Caesar). The beautiful Marjorie died within a few hours, aged only about 19 years and 3 months, on 2 March 1316. Her last words are reported to have been ‘He’s a laddie; I ken he’s a laddie; he will be king’. Her improbable dying prophecy eventually came true, but not for another fifty-five years.

King Robert Stewart II was the first of the Stewart Kings.

Anyanka said

Boleyn said

black_mamba said

The Stewart/Stuart line really had some bad luck. The “melancholy” that seems to have been suffered by many Stewarts can be traced to King Robert Stewart III. Robert III ended his reign as a depressed, self-hating old man. It is said that he wanted to be buried under a dunghill, instead of a traditional royal grave.
King James I (Robert III’s son) was assasinated on 21 Feb 1437. James I’s son, James II “The Fiery Face” died when a cannon exploded during his campaign against the Black Douglas’s. James III and James IV died in battle. James V died of “melancholy”. Now, how someone dies of melancholy, I have no idea. Then you get Mary, Queen of Scots. So, yes, the Stewarts seemed to have some bad luck…

Not forgetting that poor James 6th scotland/1st England grew up with the knowledge that his own father had been slain in a very brutal manner too. In fact as he grew older he became mortally afraid of being murdered himself, so wore thick padded doublets which always mae him appear as being fat when in fact he wasn’t . James was also lived in far of witchcraft, this is to do with one of Shakespeare’s plays, Known as the Scottish play in which the witches foretell of a king’s death by foul means of witchcraft I believe, it’s a long time since I read it. But either way James didn’t really escape the struats curse he lived and died a natural death but his whole live he must have lived like a cat on a hot tin roof jumping from place to place just to find somewhere dark and cool to hide. James was known as the wisest fool in christendom.

Lets not forget James’s life was threatened by The Gunpowder Plot in 1605.

True Anyanka. and of course when he found out wha was happening, he must have felt terrified, because he would have known that his father was blown up as well as knowing that James 4th had his head blown off his shoulders too. It actually does make you wonder (a what if question here) If the Gunpoweder plot had succeeded, just how different would England have been. I know te plotters plan was to Place James’s daughter Elizabeth on the throne but why and what would they acheive by it.