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Is it me...or does anyone else feel that women are becoming increasingly objectified??
October 14, 2011
12:31 pm
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Claire-Louise
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First of all, I must point out, that what I am about to say does not refer to all men….I have met gentlemen who have shown me and I am as far as I am aware, other women, nothing but respect.

However, I cannot help becoming increasingly angry (and I don’t know if this applies to the UK in particular) about the behaviour of a lot of men in nightclubs. What is my real issue is the fact that a high percentage of men think it is perfectly acceptable to put their hands all over you, when they have never spoken to you before…ever!

Last week for example, a young man (who was a complete stranger and hadn’t even spoken to me that night) squeezed past me in a nightclub…and I’m not sure how I can explain this subtly Confused slapped my behind Yell Then there are others that just grab at you…and then some make rather unpleasant comments.

Now the thing is, a lot of these are presumably reasonably educated, and I always think of the cliche’ “Didn’t your parents teach you no better’. Or is it just that they ignore the rules of etiquette and generic politeness that they were brought up with?

Or is it just that the media nowadays (just take a look at some of the commercials that are on) teach men that women ARE objects! In fact, a lot of women nowadays think that I’m taking things well out of proportion! and that this sort of attention is flattering. Now, is it just me, or would anyone else like a bit of old fashioned chivalry???

Additionally, and now I know I’m just ranting a bit..what else annoys me is that when you are a single woman and not desperately seeking a relationship, a lot men think that means that you must be desperate, and that they can have unlimited access to you, and some women won’t allow you near their boyfriends as the presume you must be some kind of viscous home-wrecker!

Apologies for my little outburst Embarassed but I would love to know what other people’s opinions on this are Smile xx

October 14, 2011
6:48 pm
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Mya Elise
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Guys are complete pigs anymore. The only thing on their mind is… well, sex. I admit there are probably a handfull, literally, of guys who are gentlemen and genuine. Maybe it's because they are young and want to enjoy life then settle down and show their soft sides…?

Maybe my advice or thoughts won't be helpful because i tend to be on the cynical side.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

October 15, 2011
4:05 am
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Neil Kemp
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WinkAs I class myself as a gentleman who has always tried to treat women with dignity and respect, I guess that only leaves room for four others to make up the handful then! I am however from an older generation, when these values were commonplace rather than the exception that they seem to be in the modern world.

BTW, what's a nightclub?Wink

October 15, 2011
8:38 am
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Claire-Louise
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Neil Kemp said:

BTW, what’s a nightclub?Wink

 

LOL Laugh Neil, you are funny! and I think you should start up a boot camp for aspiring gentlemen in the UK!

October 15, 2011
6:43 pm
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Impish_Impulse
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Hear, hear! Teach 'em, Neil!! It's a public service for all women. Cool

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

October 16, 2011
4:23 am
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Elliemarianna
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I agree, when I was 15 I worked in a pub/restaurant as a waitress – all the football players for the local football club would come in and grab at me. When I told the manager he told me I was paid to show customers a good time?! Guess I should have re-read the job description then…

I would get grabbed when I went out to pubs or clubs in my late teens, until I started going to metal/alternative clubs/pubs, where I found the guys a lot more respectful. But that then started new problems, as I would get abuse from drunk men on my way home – who because of how I looked, thought it was OK to start a fight with me. I've been punched in the face by a man because I looked like a 'Goth'.

Ultimately I gave up with British men, because I found many of them disrespectful, and married an American Laugh

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

October 16, 2011
8:01 am
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Neil Kemp
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Claire-Louise and Impish, thank you for the vote of confidence in my quality as a gentleman.Smile

Regrettably the values I hold dear would seem laughably old-fashioned by most of today's generation, so we might have to skip the boot camp.Frown

On a serious note, I find the behaviour of a lot of men towards women in this country nothing short of disgusting. It lacks compassion, and is in most instances pernicious in the extreme. There are of course notable exceptions, but it would seem that most men in this country only see women as compliable to their own needs.

Women have had a tough time of it through the ages: Being the property of their husband, not allowed to inherit, not allowed decent work, not allowed to vote, not allowed an equal wage, expected to do all the domestic chores, etc, etc. It would seem that whatever wrong is put right, another comes along to replace it. At this time in history, it would seem to be the treatment of women by men who, feeling undermined or threatened by intelligent women now being at least their equal in the home and workplace, must sate their male pride and ego by demeaning them in other ways.

Let us hope this attitude can change in the near future, although I fear it will not.

October 16, 2011
6:43 pm
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Anyanka
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The Angel of the Household stereotype which was beloved by the Victorian middle-class was  very damaging to the image of women in much the same way that the sexually voracious vixen who seduces her way though all men.

 

However sexual harassement has always happened. The house-maid raped by the master of the house,slave-owners in the southern US states increasing thier stock of slaves,  and so on and so forth.

 

The fact that women have been 'allowed' more freedom of movement from the early 1920's to now added to the increasing political awareness of women's rights means that rapes, sexual assaults are not ignored as ” well, she/he must have been asking for it” to it becoming a crime that should be prosecuted. But isn't always…

It's always bunnies.

October 16, 2011
6:49 pm
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Anyanka
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Neil, I'm sure your not the type of “gentleman” who pushes past me to open a door since I'm too weak and feeble to open it myself..

 

Nor would you grab a 20lb bag of spuds cos it was heavy but let me carry your son, my nephew, who was a freakingly heavy 2 yo wriggling boy, TYVM BIL.

 

OTOH, Simon Weston helped a heavily pregnant me off a train.Which I was grateful for.

It's always bunnies.

October 17, 2011
5:47 am
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Neil Kemp
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Anyanka, as I'm a bit of a technophobe I don't understand what words your letters represent (ok, I get OTOH must be on the other hand, but the rest of it is lost on me), so I have no idea if you're taking the mick out of me or not. In any event my values are sincere, so if others choose to sneer at those beliefs, or think me very old-fashioned, then that's up to them I guess.

October 17, 2011
10:54 am
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Sharon
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Neil, you are truly a real gentleman. The exception to the rule, and it is a real pleasure knowing you.  Gentlemen are not easy to find in any age group.

Claire-Louise,

I'm sorry that this happened to you.  I'm sorry it happens at all.  Frown

The nightclub scene when I was a young woman was dreadful.  I always called it a meat market because that was how I felt when I was out there.  Apparently, not much has changed.  Men can be pigs.  Especially when they are in their caves (nightclubs) and have put away more than a few drinks.  I don't care what the scientists say, the Neanderthal still survives.  If a young man grabs a young woman, he is going to grow up to be an old man who grabs all women. They do not change. 

In the meantime, don't just think it, ask them, “What would your mother, or your grandmother, say if she could see you now?” Say anything that will embarrass them.  If embarrassing them is even a remote possibility.  Let them know you are not there to be touched.  

October 17, 2011
5:50 pm
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Anyanka
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Neil Kemp said:

Anyanka, as I’m a bit of a technophobe I don’t understand what words your letters represent (ok, I get OTOH must be on the other hand, but the rest of it is lost on me), so I have no idea if you’re taking the mick out of me or not. In any event my values are sincere, so if others choose to sneer at those beliefs, or think me very old-fashioned, then that’s up to them I guess.

I’m sorry if you felt I was mocking you, because I wasn’t . I was mocking the fake-gentleman who in order to show his thoughtfulness , he’ll knock some-one aside to open the door for them, whether they need it or not.

 

Or in the case of my brother in law (BIL) wouldn’t let me carry heavy groceries but had no problem with letting me carry his much heavier, mobile son for a much longer distance cos that’s what women do with children.

 

I apologise if you thought I was attacking you personally.

It's always bunnies.

October 18, 2011
4:04 am
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Neil Kemp
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Sharon, thank you for your comments, they mean a great deal to me. May I also say it's been a great pleasure in “meeting” you also. Once again, thank you.Smile

Anyanka, you must forgive my over-sensitivity in these matters, it's just that when someone gives examples of what a gentleman is clearly not, then I remain unsure if that comment was directed at me, or just ironic in general (as I couldn't work out your letter speak, being something of a computer novice).

Apology accepted without problem. Please accept my apology in my misinterpretation of your intentions.

October 30, 2011
2:38 pm
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Claire-Louise
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Sharon said:

Neil, you are truly a real gentleman. The exception to the rule, and it is a real pleasure knowing you.  Gentlemen are not easy to find in any age group.

Claire-Louise,

I’m sorry that this happened to you.  I’m sorry it happens at all.  Frown

The nightclub scene when I was a young woman was dreadful.  I always called it a meat market because that was how I felt when I was out there.  Apparently, not much has changed.  Men can be pigs.  Especially when they are in their caves (nightclubs) and have put away more than a few drinks.  I don’t care what the scientists say, the Neanderthal still survives.  If a young man grabs a young woman, he is going to grow up to be an old man who grabs all women. They do not change. 

In the meantime, don’t just think it, ask them, “What would your mother, or your grandmother, say if she could see you now?” Say anything that will embarrass them.  If embarrassing them is even a remote possibility.  Let them know you are not there to be touched.  

 

Sorry it has taken me a while to respond to this topic…I've not been on this forum for ages; I've missed you guys! Smile Sharon; that really is good advice, perhaps being more outspoken would be a good idea….I generally try and hold my tongue as I'm worried that I will lose my temper. However what you have suggested Sharon would help me get my point across whilst still being polite.

November 5, 2011
5:23 pm
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Anyanka
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Neil Kemp said:

Apology accepted without problem. Please accept my apology in my misinterpretation of your intentions.

No problem..

It's always bunnies.

November 8, 2011
4:33 pm
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Claire-Louise
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wreckmasterjay said:

Lets face it, 99.99% of guys/girls in nightclubs will not be able to hold an intelligent conversation! If you dont believe me try it, you might laugh at the results if you start talking about Henry VIII

 

Lol Laugh Laugh you are right there wreckmasterjay! I am so tempted to try this Wink

 

June 2, 2012
1:25 pm
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Boleyn
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wreckmasterjay said

Ha ha let me know the results! I have been bored on nights out before and started talking about politics and stuff to see what reaction i’d get…..you can tell they want to walk away but some are too awkward to do it ha ha.

Nice one Jay. Like it. I think it’s always fun when you can put them on their derrierre, when they start talking about things that they think you are too stupid to understand what they on about and then you show them up by taking apart their arguement and throwing it back in their faces…
Done that a few times and you see their faces and the faces of their freinds, a lot of shuffling and embarrased coughing as their rewards..
I’m a larger lady myself and I found that most men don’t always give me the respect I deserve, and yet put a empty headed blonde bimbo in front of them and they turn into drooling idiots..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 2, 2012
1:59 pm
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Maggyann
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I am probably going out on a limb here, and a thin shaky one at that but as far as nightclubs go I have to ask what else do girls expect these days when they are dressed in less than I wear on the beach? They are going to a place where they know copious amounts of alcohol will be consumed by males, females and in betweeners alike. They know that a strapless top, micro mini skirt, thong and long boots adorning a tanned (ahem) body topped with long hair which has been ironed to within an inch of its life is the visual equivilent of standing under a lamp post chewing gum and staring at male drivers cruising past. Then they have the audacity to be ‘offended’ when a male acts like a male acts. If a female is old enough to enter a nightclub then surely she is also old enough to know that men are easily distracted/attracted and most of not all of their libido operates on visual stimulus so why go out dressed for sex then be shocked that a male at some point in the night and probably under the influence of alcohol and equally drunken mates, responds to the visual sexual stimuli. The honest truth is they dress provocatively to provoke a response added to which they drink alcohol and lose all sense of decorum. I am not saying quite baldly that girls ask for ‘it’ because they don’t necessarily but they do NOT protect themselves from ‘it’. They aim to provoke the males then cry foul when the male responds.
I know, I ‘ve been around a while, there is a train of thought which says a woman should be able to walk the streets naked if she wants and not be seen as sexual. Fine, be as PC as you want but personally I think that is the most stupid argument there is.
A bit like saying from your bed in intensive care ‘but the green man was showing when I crossed, I had right of way, it’s not fair’ after being knocked down and almost killed by a runaway truck which has suffered from brake failure.
I am sorry I just know I have offended people but honestly we all male or female have to take responsibility for ourselves. Putting yourself in danger and then crying foul is IMO extremely immature.

Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60

June 2, 2012
6:21 pm
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Sharon
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There was a great movie many years ago called The Accused, starring Jodie Foster. It is about a young girl who was quite drunk in a bar and was gang raped by the boys there. It is the story of her trial. If I’m not mistaken, it is a true story. Great movie.

June 2, 2012
8:33 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn,
Are you sure they are not more afraid of your intellect rather than being put off by the way you look? I think men, like the ones we are talking about here, tend to shy away from intelligent women. They would be quite put off by an intelligent blonde as well. They are not worth your time. These men need to be put in their place more often. I am quite petite, but I have a mouth that would make Anne Boleyn proud.
The same things happened when I was single and I dressed in jeans and T-shirts. Completely covered from head to toe. It never mattered to those men what anyone was wearing. We went through the same thing Claire-Louise is going through today. You have to use your voice and shut them down.

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