Barbara Stanwyk–Ironically, wasn't she also in The Thornbirds miniseries??  I swear that was her.  Small world.

I think what I like about The Thornbirds is that it ends dreadfully.  I mean, no one is happy at the end except Justine, which seems appropriate.

I am 99% sure that Mammy mentions to Scarlett the whole Philippe situation, but I don't know that Scarlett ever investigates the matter further.  Tara was in such shambles, I think she just put the matter out of her head.

Boleynfan said:

Thank you, Sharon. Interesting thought…I've read a couple of books on Mary as well, and have found the same thing. Have you read any nonfic about her? I also agree that she was not trained for the job. I for one don't admire her; I feel a little sorry for her, but she did bring a lot of the trouble on herself with her terrible judgment.

Has anyone ever read Legacy? I can't remember the author at this moment but it is a novel about Elizabeth I. I read it last week and loved it! It's on my top two favorite fic books about Elizabeth, maybe my top one. I would really recommend it.

Read Legacy what feels like a hundred years ago and I'm with you — it's one of my favorite Elizabeth fictional novels. I want to say the author is Susan Kaye but don't hold me to that

The comments about novels on Mary Queen of Scots make me curious, or is it more that they fascinate me. Up front — I am not and never have been a fan of hers. It has nothing to do with Elizabeth Tudor and their rivalry — I just can't abide silly women and while she did a couple of things that made me think “That's impressive,” most of the time I want to bang her head into a very hard wall and knock some sense into her.

If I understand it right, her  mother Mary d'Guise pretty much sacrificed her life to maintain her daughter's throne, staying in Scotland to make sure the Guise and Stuart interests were kept strong. Unlike Elizabeth, Mary Stuart — a Queen from birth — was spoiled, flaunted over, cosseted; poets were singing her praises when she was quite young; sculptors and artists moulded her image or painted it. She was raised to be Queen of Scotland, the future Queen of France and — once Mary I was dead — the “legitimate” Queen of England. I know we have the stories of her being so sweet to her Four Maries. I have the image — thanks to Antonia Fraser — of her standing on the ship carrying her to Scotland (a land as strange to her as Mars would be to us), remaining on whatever part of the vessel would keep her nearer to France as it faded into the distance … and it's like the final scene of Queen Christina with Greta Garbo. I don't know what she felt about Francis II,;she didn't have much choice in marrying him and maybe he was her first love — but her marriages to Darnley and Bothwell….Good friggin' grief!  Do I think she “looked through her fingers” when it came to Darnley's murder? I don't know. Did she look through them again when her followers swore to assassinate Elizabeth and put her on the English throne? (Plausible deniability? Is that what it's called? Deny everything, no matter what you know so they can't pin things on you). Maybe. And the execution was a stinking mess; no one deserved THAT!

Disney did a short animation about her (said she was the inspiration for Mary Mary Quite Contrary and even Disney romanticized her a an innocent around which evil things happened). Katharine Hepburn nearly made her a romantic martyr in Mary of Scotland, complete with her climbing the scaffold to the sound (in her head) of bagpipes. Redgrave — okay, I don't remember  much about her Mary, except that I felt annoyed when I was watching the movie. The more recent Samantha Morton may have played older Mary the way I visualize her towards the end: steadfast in her beliefs, still proclaiming her innocence, and seeing herself as a martyr down to the end.

Sorry about the length of this — that woman just sets me off LOL I guess it all boils down to the fact that Mary Stuart will always be an enigma to me. She had everything but managed to throw it all away with both hands, whether she intended to or not. Her execution may have been heartbreaking — especially the part about her little dog — but I always walk away from Mary and still think “I can't stand silly women.” Maybe she wasn't silly, but after all these years of studying the Tudors and the various lines they bred, she ranks up there with my least favorite.

Boleynfan said:

Thank you, Sharon. Interesting thought…I've read a couple of books on Mary as well, and have found the same thing. Have you read any nonfic about her? I also agree that she was not trained for the job. I for one don't admire her; I feel a little sorry for her, but she did bring a lot of the trouble on herself with her terrible judgment.

Has anyone ever read Legacy? I can't remember the author at this moment but it is a novel about Elizabeth I. I read it last week and loved it! It's on my top two favorite fic books about Elizabeth, maybe my top one. I would really recommend it.

I read Legacy last summer and loved it.  I agree with you, it is also one of my favorite fiction books of Elizabeth.  I'm sure I have read fiction about Mary.  I will look.  I read mostly non-fiction on her.
I'm not sure I can add anything to Tina's comments about Mary.  She pretty much covered my thoughts on the woman except I believe she knew exactly what Bothwell was going to do to Darnley; and I think Bothwell's kidnapping of her was planned between the two of them.  She had someone else do her dirty work and then claimed her innocense in the matter.  Yes, plausible deniability.

She is the one who wrote the letters which connected her to the plot to kill Elizabeth.  She knew about the plot to kill Elizabeth, and she she was a willing participant.  She had lost the titles to two thrones.  She wanted Elizabeth's.  By claiming to want to bring Catholicism back to England, she could get the Catholic conspirators to kill Elizabeth and she would not be blamed. Again, plausible deniability.  

I wonder if  had she succeeded in having Elizabeth killed, would she then have claimed her son's throne?  I don't think Mary ever thought things through to the end.  She was impulsive.  I just watched the first part of Elizabeth again, the one with Helen Mirren and Jeremy Irons.  Elizabeth and Dudley are discussing Mary.  Dudley says, “Mary Queen of Scots, or France, or whatever country she now claims the throne of…”  That is not an exact quote, but it sums up what I think of Mary.  She wanted a crown because she believed she was born to be a Queen.  Lose one crown, move onto the next. 

 And Tina, do you know all the lines in all the movies by heart?  Wow, you are good at quoting films.

Yesterday Errol Flynn. Today Russell Crowe, Colin Farrell, or Gerard Butler. 

I think the only movie I did not see Elizabeth Taylor in was, Who's Afraid of Virgina Wolf.  I'm sure she was terrific in it, but the movie never grabbed me.  What a phenominal woman Elizabeth Taylor was.  Everyone said the love of her life was Michael Todd, but I loved, loved, loved her with Richard Burton.  They were so beautiful together and volatile.  Such a grand affair.  Peace Elizabeth.

@Sharon:

I was laughing when you asked if I knew all the lines to these movies  Well, maybe not all of them, but there are a few that stick with me enough that I can replay many of the scenes in my head (GWTW, The Godfather, The Ten Commandments, Laura, Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Empire Strikes Back). I grew up in a movie passionate family! I think I saw my first movie when I was about 3 or 4 — I couldn't figure out how the heck an orchestra was hiding behind that big white thing they called a screen! LOL I probably heard more movie storylines than I did fairy tales! (It was cool having a grandmother who saw King Kong and Frankenstein when they were first released). And the one movie three generations of the women in my family shared was GWTW.

What a wonderful line from Helen Mirren's Elizabeth, the one said by Robert Dudley. I remember laughing when I heard it and thinking “Boy is that the truth!” While I realize that in that mishmash of the Tudor family tree, she did have some right to the English throne, it's that attitude of hers that drives me insane. (I think I read that at one point, while still Queen of France, she even added the arms of England to her standard — I'm sure at the urging of her Guise relations and the Catholic factions, but ended up removing them after a settlement with Elizabeth).

She was good at playing the victim. While I admire her seducing that nasty little Darnley to plot her escape after Rizzio's murder, I've just never romanticized her. Those later plots in her name, I remember historian Mary M. Luke (in Gloriana) stating that a generation came along that only knew of her as the prisoner of the evil Protestant usurper; that knew little or nothing of the Darnley/Bothwell affairs — and it was out of it that young men were spawned who wanted to be her rescuers, her knights in shining armor. Mary used that, just like she used so many things. I'm sure she had a nice side — but poor little innocent queen with the wicked jealous cousin has never been one with me. (I still remember reading somewhere that Elizabeth had Mary executed because Mary was more beautiful, sweet and charming. Good grief — what is this? Some stupid fairy tale?)

Plausible deniability! Thanks for verifying that. I had just gotten home from work when I typed it and I wasn't sure just then LOL I've always known one thing — she never would have treated Elizabeth the way Elizabeth treated her: defending her and “protecting” her for about 25 years give or take because she was a fellow annointed Queen. (Didn't Elizabeth even write Mary after Darnley's murder and tell her to conduct a thorough examination, etc.? This after Mary supposedly declared that Elizabeth's Master of the Horse had had his wife murdered so the Queen could marry him!)  

I do think she would have attempted to take back her Scottish throne, although the Scottish lords would have provided quite a front. But she could have justified it by saying that she abdicated by coercion and didn't know what she was doing. Now whether she would have won it back is another thing. As you said, Mary never seemed to think things through to the end. Right now, I'm sitting here thinking that — although Phillip of Spain claimed to be her friend — would he really want a woman who would now be Queen of England Scotland, Wales, Ireland and France (and I'm sure, despite some differences, continuing her allegiance with Catherine deMedici's sons) having such control? My brain's all over the place LOL (and hoping it makes sense).

And I'm going to have to go back and watch Helen Mirren's Elizabeth again. That also had a fictional meeting between the two Queens, didn't it?

Briefly back to GWTW — I know Errol Flynn was up for the role of Rhett, but I'm not sure why he didn't get the part. (I don't think the Rhett list was ever as long as the Scarlett one).

Oh! Side note: Saw Mary Anderson (Maybelle Meriwether) in Alfred Hitchc*ck's Lifeboat yesterday. I checked her filmography and it doesn't seem that she did many movies.

As for Elizabeth Taylor — the two of us share February 27th as our birthday. She was also my late mother's favorite actress, so it's ironic that they both passed away this year. I've heard that too, about Mike Todd, but there was something about her and Richard Burton that was incredible, despite their two divorces and their ups and downs and all the passion and turbulence. (Good grief — ups, downs, passion, turbulence…reminds me of Henry and Anne! LOL). The romantic in me is hoping that somewhere, they're together again.

On that note, I leave for work in about 2 hours so I'm going to get some rest, then I'm off the next couple of days.

Bella44 said:

Elizabeth Taylor was truly amazing and I always liked her with Montgomery Clift in 'A Place in the Sun'.  She will definitely be missed.

I heard she put out a book on her jewellery collection, does anyone know anything about it?

Have you ever seen Raintree County?  The two of them star in that together.  Excellent movie.

MegC said:

A Place in the Sun is the only Elizabeth Taylor film I've ever seen…strike that, I've seen one other, but it's title escapes me.

Despite that, she was stunningly beautiful in her youth, and I've always thought that she would have made an excellent Scarlett O'Hara if Vivien Leigh hadn't gotten the role.  

She was a lot too young to appear as Scarlett though. She was only 7 at the time.

TinaII2None said:

@Sharon:

I was laughing when you asked if I knew all the lines to these movies  Well, maybe not all of them, but there are a few that stick with me enough that I can replay many of the scenes in my head (GWTW, The Godfather, The Ten Commandments, Laura, Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Empire Strikes Back). I grew up in a movie passionate family! I think I saw my first movie when I was about 3 or 4 — I couldn't figure out how the heck an orchestra was hiding behind that big white thing they called a screen! LOL I probably heard more movie storylines than I did fairy tales! (It was cool having a grandmother who saw King Kong and Frankenstein when they were first released). And the one movie three generations of the women in my family shared was GWTW.

What a wonderful line from Helen Mirren's Elizabeth, the one said by Robert Dudley. I remember laughing when I heard it and thinking “Boy is that the truth!” While I realize that in that mishmash of the Tudor family tree, she did have some right to the English throne, it's that attitude of hers that drives me insane. (I think I read that at one point, while still Queen of France, she even added the arms of England to her standard — I'm sure at the urging of her Guise relations and the Catholic factions, but ended up removing them after a settlement with Elizabeth).

She was good at playing the victim. While I admire her seducing that nasty little Darnley to plot her escape after Rizzio's murder, I've just never romanticized her. Those later plots in her name, I remember historian Mary M. Luke (in Gloriana) stating that a generation came along that only knew of her as the prisoner of the evil Protestant usurper; that knew little or nothing of the Darnley/Bothwell affairs — and it was out of it that young men were spawned who wanted to be her rescuers, her knights in shining armor. Mary used that, just like she used so many things. I'm sure she had a nice side — but poor little innocent queen with the wicked jealous cousin has never been one withme. (I still remember reading somewhere that Elizabeth had Mary executed because Mary was more beautiful, sweet and charming. Good grief — what is this? Some stupid fairy tale?)

Plausible deniability! Thanks for verifying that. I had just gotten home from work when I typed it and I wasn't sure just then LOL I've always known one thing — she never would have treated Elizabeththe way Elizabeth treated her: defending her and “protecting” her for about 25 years give or take because she was a fellow annointedQueen. (Didn't Elizabeth even write Mary after Darnley's murder and tell her to conduct a thorough examination, etc.? This after Mary supposedly declared that Elizabeth's Master of the Horse had had his wife murdered so the Queen could marry him!)  

I do think she would have attempted to take back her Scottish throne, although the Scottish lords would have provided quite a front. But she could have justified it by saying that she abdicated by coercion and didn't know what she was doing. Now whether she would have won it back is another thing. As you said, Mary never seemed to think things through to the end. Right now, I'm sitting here thinking that — although Phillip of Spain claimed to be her friend — would he really want a woman who would now be Queen of England Scotland, Wales, Ireland and France (and I'm sure, despite some differences, continuing her allegiance with Catherine deMedici's sons) having such control? My brain's all over the place LOL (and hoping it makes sense).

And I'm going to have to go back and watch Helen Mirren's Elizabeth again. That also had a fictional meeting between the two Queens, didn't it?

Briefly back to GWTW — I know Errol Flynn was up for the role of Rhett, but I'm not sure why he didn't get the part. (I don't think the Rhett list was ever as long as the Scarlett one).

Oh! Side note: Saw Mary Anderson (Maybelle Meriwether) in Alfred Hitchc*ck's Lifeboatyesterday. I checked her filmography and it doesn't seem that she did many movies.

As for Elizabeth Taylor — the two of us share February 27th as our birthday. She was also my late mother's favorite actress, so it's ironic that they both passed away this year. I've heard that too, about Mike Todd, but there was something about her and Richard Burton that was incredible, despite their two divorces and their ups and downs and all the passion and turbulence. (Good grief — ups, downs, passion, turbulence…reminds me of Henry and Anne! LOL). The romantic in me is hoping that somewhere, they're together again.

On that note, I leave for work in about 2 hours so I'm going to get some rest, then I'm off the next couple of days.

There are a few movies I can quote, but you take the cake.  I love all the movies you mentioned, but I'm not sure I'd get the quotes right.  Now Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid, which I watched again yesterday for the millionth time, I know by heart.  Romeo and Juliet, (i think because I read this one over and over again more than seeing the movie. I did love the movie) and yes, The Godfather.  Laura, WOW!  You are one of the few people I know that even knows about that movie.  When I was 14 I was in a body cast on a stretcher for a year and a half.  Watching movies became a hobby.  My Mom worked the 3-11 shift.  I always waited up for her.  In order to stay awake until she came home, I watched movies.  All of them, several times over, I might add.  When we visited my aunt, we watched old movies every night.  When I was very little, and had to go to bed, I would leave the bedroom door open, and would listen to the movies.  I would be lulled to sleep bythe voices of Kirk Douglas, Burt Lancaster, Humphrey Bogart, Robert Mitchum, Alan Ladd, Yul Brynner, and many more.  I still know their voices when I hear them.  Funny though, never learned too many of the female voices….Mmmmmm. 

My Mom, however, could not stand Elizabeth Taylor. (married too many times for her) My aunt and I loved her.  I always turned to my aunt when I wanted to discuss Elizabeth and Richard.  They did have the same kind of passion between them as Anne and Henry.  But nobody lost their head.

The king of France, Henry II, Mary's father-in-law, felt that Elizabeth was not a legal successor to the throne, and Mary was.  That is when Mary and Francois began stylizing themselves as Queen and King of Scotland, England and France.  They continued to use the English arms at official occasions.  They even had the England's arms embroidered on the herald's tunics.   The Treaty of Edinburgh, was signed with the french agreeing to withdraw troops from Scotland. The treaty also stated that Elizabeth was rightful heir to the throne of England and Ireland; and it was agreed that Mary and Francois could no longer bear the arms of England as their own.  Mary was angry. Francois and Mary could do nothing about the signed treaty except threaten not to ratify.

Elizabeth did meet with Mary in the movie.  Elizabeth tried to warn Mary not to get involved in any conspiracies because she was being watched carefully. 

I have never heard why Errol Flynn didn't get that part.  Always pictured him as Rhett while reading the book.  Can't imagine anyone else in the part since I've seen the movie.  Question: When they were looking for someone to play Rhett in the movie Scarlett, was Tom Selleck up for consideration, or is that me wishing it were so?

Anyanka said:

 

---

I'm watching Helen Mirren portraying the current Elizabeth in The Queen. It's very true to how I remember the whole showbiz Globe-acting that I saw around the death of Diana…
I'm trying to decide between Vanity Fair, Nicolas Nickleby or Sence and Sencibilty for my next novel.

I've read Sense and Sensibility but I personally prefer Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion. I've seen two movie versions of Vanity Fair and the Broadway version and at least 3 movie versions of Nicolas Nickleby. I'd go with Nicolas Nickleby…although with all our talk about Scarlett O'Hara, Becky Sharpe might be an interesting way to go.

Having taken all variables into account…I picked Vanity Fair since it on the top of a to-read pile next to my side of the bed…

Sharon said:

DuchessofBrittany said:

I've just finished Sir Thomas More's Utopia and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I see the basis for socialist and Marxist theories, but they are rather simplistic in origin. However, I feel the whole tone of the story is rather satirical. Many of the social norms and mores of the Utopians are against everything I know about More's own personal beliefs. For instance, the Utopians are religiously tolerant, priests marry, etc. Yet, the book is ladened with misgyony, pro-slavery, too. There are such contraditions in the Utopian society, which I guess is relfective of all societies. I do feel More is trying to exponed some of his own ideas here, but since this is work of fiction, he can step away from claiming he believes it all.

The most interesting thing, and some what ironic, is Utopia has quite lax divorce laws. I guess Henry VIII must have wished he lived in Utopia when he tried to get ride of KOA. More certainly saw divorce differenlty as Lord Chancellor!

My final thought was why write it at all? I have no idea of More's intentions. There is some parts of the importance of monastic life, which seems to be dear to More, and his own religious ideals. Yet, I feel there was more to More than meets the eye.

I recommend reading it. It's an easy read. I read the Penguin Classics and the translation was in modern-day English.

---

Duchess, I have not read Utopia.  More than likely because I'm not a fan of More's.  When did he write this?  Was it when he was a young man?  I recently read somewhere that More did have a healthy dislike for women.  He did not treat his wives well.  He loved his daughter, though.  He's such a hard man to understand. Funny he should write in his book that divorce laws were lax.  Maybe that's why Henry made him Chancellor.  He may have thought More would be okay with the divorce of KOA.  I always thought Henry was baffled by More's reluctance to side with Henry and to not sign the oath.

Utopia just came up on my Amazon recommendations at less than $3…so that's now on the list with a huge number of other books costing less than $5, like The Republic, The Prince, The Illad.

oh! and I caved in the peer pressure and ordered Elizabeth tVS…