I must admit, Catherine intrigues me. I can't quite fathom her out. Did she really not understand that she was playing with fire? I don't like the 'silly little tart' perception of her at all, but I can't understand why she thought she would get away with what she did. Was it utter naivety? Was she fully aware of the risks, but was so in love with Culpeper she did it anyway just hoping she wouldn't get caught?

Yeah, the fact that he petted and spoiled her may have made her believe he would forgive her anything. But I could understand that more if it wasn't for the fact he had her cousin beheaded for adultery (albeit on trumped up charges, but I don't know if Anne's innocence was widely believed at the time). If that had never happened, I could understand her taking the risk as she may have thought the worst that could happen would be him divorcing her and sending her off to a nunnery or something.  And who knows, maybe she would have preferred that than having to lie with an ageing, obese man with a putrid leg ulcer.  But the fact he had beheaded Anne for adultery would surely have made her realise that he was capable of anything.

I can quite imagine the good old Duke of Norfolk telling her to do just that in order to fall pregnant. The thing is though, if Henry was impotent by that point, surely if she had been doing it to fall pregnant, Henry would have realised he couldn't be the father!

I have to admit Katherine isn't my favourite wife but I too find the tag of 'juvenile delinquent' inaccurate.  I think Norfolk and Gardiner should take some of the blame, putting a young girl who was no match intellectually for the king in front of Henry like that.  You'd think Norfolk especially would've learnt his lesson from Anne.  Aside from lust (I'm pretty sure all on Henry's part!) what did they have in common?  As you say Claire-Louise, she wasn't well educated but I don't think she was stupid either.  I think she found herself in a situation that was beyond her and took comfort where she could.  And i don't blame her for that!

I like what you said about making mistakes when young – unfortunately Katherine never got the chance to mature and grow up.  I sometimes wonder what she would have been like as an older woman.  Would she have come to value education Catherine Parr did? Would she have developed strong religious/political beliefs or stayed right out?  Would she have developed good relationships with Henrys' children? I hope whatever she turned into she would have retained her sense of fun – I think I always liked that part of her character the most! 

Some people say that in that portrait she has a sort of 'come hither', flirtatious look about her, but I just don't see it. The portrait doesn't capture the 'Rose without a thorn' image for me.

Catalina said:

I don't think she would have cultivated good relationships with Henry's children, but it wouldn't have been for the lack of trying on her part.  I just think she was too young for them to have taken her seriously or respected her.

Especially as she was a few years younger than Mary. That must have caused a lot of strife and jealousy on mary's part.

To go from one of the most marriagable princesses in Europe to a bastard in a few years, forced to give up everything she held dear and 2 sympathic stepmothers to see a slip of a girl flaunt round her father's court…..must have hurt as much as any of Anne's actions.

Elizabeth and Edward would havae been more isolated in thier nursery palace.

It seems from reading about CH's life that she was unfortunate. Her father dying, her faimily broke, coming from a lesser (ie. less important line) of the Howard family, and being passed off on the dowager duchess was not much of an upbringing. As compared to Henry's other queens, CH was never exposed the strength of family, the power of an education, or the protection of a royal bloodline. She was just another abandoned child, and left to her own devices. She seemed to be easy pickings for men. From the time she was young, Catherine was a pretty, pert, girl whose naitivity, and love of a good time made her easily manipulated by more powerful men.

Lacey Baldiwin-Smith book on CH was excellent. I admit he was a little too judgemental about CH and her affair with Culpepper. Otherwise, he did an brillant job of bringing Catherine to life, and I learned a great deal about her life, the world she came from, and her position in English history.

I've always felt a great deal of empathy for CH. I know I see her life differently than Tudor cultural values would, but I cannot help but feel for this girl. She should have been protected by her family. But, no one was going to protect her from the preying males of the Tudor court. They used and abused her, sent her to the slaughter, and washed the blood from their hands when it was over.

I know she consented to an affair with Culpepper. But I imagine myself in her position. What would I do? I would probably seek some love and affection (regardless of false it was) just to feel something: something other than an disgusting old, decrepit husband.