Interesting topic.
Treason. basically is this the crime of betraying one’s country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.

Katherine was not betraying her country, in fact if anything she was trying to keep it together.
No way would she try and kill old farty breeches.(I’d love to tie him to a balista and fire him into a wall) The Spanish Ambassador wanted K.O.A to take up arms against Henry, but she refused knowing that if she did a lot of people would die because of her. She was a popular Queen but if she had gone to war with Henry and won (Which could be highly possible as the people did love her) it would avail her nothing. The whole point was that Henry wanted rid of her, he needed a son and it was clear that he wasn’t going to get one from C.O.A. I believe her last child a girl was stillborn in 1519/20, I’ve also heard it was deformed. Properganda no doubt to jusify farty bum’s divorce case and very likely started by Farty bum. Playing the old sad sack poor bleeding Martyr act to the max.

So if K.O.A had won against him where was the son that England so needed? Answer no where there wasn’t one. Granted Mary would have been married off to a member of Spanish Nobility and could have possibly produced a couple of boys to rule, but that would be for a long time, and upon K.O.A’s death Mary and her Spanish consort would have ruled, so that would mean in affect that England would be ruled by forgieners. Which means that it’s very likely that Civil war would have erupted. Whatever Farty drawers (Henry) was or wasn’t he was English and the English people were and still are fiercely English, and would never tolerate being ruled by a forgieners, which it would be if K.O.A took the field against Henry. You only have to look at how Mary’s reign panned out to see how forgieners were treated by the English, everything was hunky dory with her she was popular up until the point she decided to marry Philip of Spain that’s when the rot set in.

Plus I also feel that England would never stomach being ruled/governed by a woman, no matter how popular she was. Mary and Elizabeth were only accepted as ruling Queens, as that was really all that were available, Henry had chopped up most of the male heirs to the throne.

K.O.A certainly wasn’t wanting to overturn the government, she just wanted justice. Her appeal to Rome was perfectly justified England was still under papal juristriction, until Farty bum, stuck 2 fingers up at the Pope and told him to go do one. I don’t think she hated Wolsey but then I don’t think she was that fond of him either, She tolerated him, but that is far as it went with her.
Wolsey was accused of treason well primejery (Spelling isn’t good today) but basically I think it’s something along the lines of using or allowing forgein powers to influence judgement. Rubbish he wasn’t he was doing exactly what Farty pants had asked him to do.. Farty Pants had said/ordered Wolsey to ask the Pope for an annulment of his marriage. Wolsey had done that, he had made him papal legate in England, and to make sure that that justice was fair the Pope had sent Cardinal Campagio to England as his representitive, to make sure that K.O.A had a fair trial If that’s makes sence.. It wouldn’t be all one sided as it would have been if the whole trial would have been if Wolsey had been allowed sole Papal authority. If he had been in sole charge I think on the very first day the divorce would have been granted.
I think Wolsey was a little put out when he realised that Farty bum wanted to marry Anne, as I believe he was negotigating for a French Match with Princess Renee. Wolsey didn’t realise just how serious he was about Anne until that point. I think he had as did a lot of others at that time, taken for granted that Farty drawers and Anne were in fact lovers, and that once Farty pants was married to Princess Renee, Anne would disappear from history so to speak.

I would take the Tudors with a dose of salt, it was a very good series, but there were a lot of inaccuricies in it. Some of which made me want to jump through the screen and crack a few skulls. But I did enjoy the series and still watch it (DVD job) Wolsey by the way did not die by cutting his throat, it’s highly possible he may of killed himself, but he would have know that suicide was a big no no, and to kill himself in such a manner would have meant he wouldn’t have been buried in consecrated ground, people were fearful of hell and the Devil etc back then it was real place to them. I believe Wolsey poisoned himself, and because of the position he found himself in. I.e on his way to the Tower, it was easier for him to die honourably (if he did indeed die by his on hand by poisoning) then to be damned, shamed and die as a traitor. I believe it was put out that Wolsey had died of a broken heart.

Anyanka said

Boleyn said

She was a popular Queen but if she had gone to war with Henry and won (Which could be highly possible as the people did love her) it would avail her nothing. The whole point was that Henry wanted rid of her, he needed a son and it was clear that he wasn’t going to get one from C.O.A. I believe her last child a girl was stillborn in 1519/20, I’ve also heard it was deformed.

My bad, Anyanka. I remembered where the deformed last baby bit came from in the night. I had read it some years ago, possibly either in and Alison Weir book, or an Antonia Frazer book. Either way I find it as difficult to believe as you do. It’s possible, but I do feel that something like that if it was true Lard Arse would have exploited that fact to further justify his claim about his marriage to K.O.A being invalid blah blah.
As far as I can tell Lard Arse based his whole annulment/divorce case around Leviticus. It may well have worked if 1 C.O.A was’t so powerfully connected with the Catholic monarchs in Europe, and 2 if he had brought this case when he first had doubts about the validity of his marriage back in 1512/13, in which case he would have also been able to state that his own father had expressed his doubts about his decision to allow the betrothal of C.O.A to Lard Arse in the first place.

Henry Tulip as we know had at one point ordered Lard Arse to say that he wasn’t happy about being betrothed to his dead brothers wife, as well. The other thing to this is that if it’s true Henry Tulip had said on his death bed to Lard Arse “Marry Catherine and be happy” he would have happy enough to believe that the marriage would have been legal. If Lard Arse which I feel is more likely decided that he wanted Catherine, whether she had been Arthur’s wife or not in the fullest sence of the word, he was obvisously agreeing with the fact that the marriage would have been legal.

Personally I think the whole reason to why Lard arse married Catherine was down to pure ego, and showmanship. He wanted to be seen as the Golden Sod who was rescuing the damsel in distress, and also to prove that he was a man and not the child he had been treated like since Arthur’s death. I didn’t understand at one point why at the age of 17, he would need a regency to govern for him, when Kings as young as 14 (which I believe Richard 2nd was when he took over the governance of the Kingdom, from his councillers after the Wat Tyler revolt) were considered ok to rule without a regency. So his marriage to Catherine was also to prove the doubters if he was old enough to marry he was old enough to rule as well. Actually given that he went through the wealth that Henry Tulip had accumulated in a such a short space of 2 or 3 years, I can see that Henry Tulip was perhaps right to appoint a regency council at least they would have been able to curb his spending habits for a while at least.

I’ll probably get a fair few slapped wrists, put in the stocks and the iron maiden for what I’m going to say, but you all know how my mind is. Weird with a capital WE. But in many ways I can see a lot of Caligula in Lard Arse. When Caligula came to the throne, he would spend lavishly, make sure that the people were kept entertained etc, he was Rome’s golden God, a man who was wise and just etc. But after his illness he was a very different person. He would execute people at the drop of a laurel leaf. If he saw something he liked he would take it regardless of the consequences. He was extremely paranoid and suspisious, and killed a lot of people who were once his freinds, he ripped Rome apart.
Lard arse in my eyes at least was along the same lines, he was the Golden Sod who was eager to please everyone, he was seen as the hero wh rescued the damsel in distress and was wise and just, but then he changed. Killed people who he saw as a threat, (real or imagined) and ripped England apart. It’s clear to e at least (again) that what Olga I believe said is right, Lard arse’s “Madness” was always there and would be just a matter of time before it came out. I wonder if he did inherit the “Madness” that affected his great grandfather Charles the Mad of France?

The Act of Succession did state that people had to take the oath or be charged with treason. I don’t know if she was ever asked to take it. Thomas More was asked and he refused. That’s why he was charged with treason. If he made that pact with Henry, he should have known better than to believe he would not be tested. If Katherine was asked and she had refused, I wonder what Henry would have done? It would not have been wise to ask her.

Good point, Anyanka. I have no idea whether she could be charged or not. However, that excuse didn’t work for MQS.

Aud, you bring up a good question. Katherine’s statement, though very cleverly worded on her part, seems a bit hypocritical. It seems that she wanted to be recognized as Henrys’ true wife yet at the same time not his subject. Which in turn means if she’s not his then she was Charles. She needed Charles and Spain as her supporters and realized the value in that.

I think she should have been considered a non foreigner because she acted as Regent and fought against Scotland when Henry went to France. This showed her loyalty to England. That and that she spent more time residing in England than in Spain.