Neil, Louise and others just a quick note that I have decided to hang around and post. I feel I have worked through my inner demons that were raised during this thread and in the end I do enjoy discussing this era with the fine people of the forum. I mean my only other option is the iMDB boards on The Tudors. And I wouldn't want to do that. So thank you especially to the 3 people who said pleasant things for my ego.

Now back to the scheduled broadcast… I hear Jane made a mean soup! 

I have to agree with “Lord Peyton” that Jane Seymour is my favourite wife because she genuinely wanted to love her step-children and reunite Henry with Mary and Elizabeth and to have her own children. It is such a great shame that there is hardly enough known about her and never getting to know her son. The tragedy is she became the object of Henry's attention.

Anne Boleyn is my second favourite wife!

I don't think 'taking teams' is really neccesary. There are 2 sides to every story and we have 6 wives here so it's not exactly fair to only consider one story and totally ignore the other. Everyone says they'd give anything to go back and get the real story and honestly that would be the only way to straighten everything out but unless someone invents a freakin time machine that won't be goin on anytime soon… : (

Lord Peyton said:

I have been reading these posts off and on for some time now, i am a lover of all things history particularily the tudors and specifically Anne Boleyn. I must admit after reading this particular thread I decided to join this forum and post for the first time because as much as i admire Anne I also highly admire Jane as well as all of Henry’s wives.  I agree with “Nutmeg” that it is very difficult to hate someone who has been dead for over 400 years and the whole team Aragon vs team Boleyn vs team Jane is crazy. These women are a lot different then we are today and I think its unfair to judge what we just don’t know 100%.  If anyone is to blame for any of these fascinating ladies misfortunes it is Henry himself and I admit its hard not to be upset reading about some of the horrors that these tudor personalities endured but I think in a way thats what makes these events so much more interesting. 

I am not the best with words as I am quite introverted and shy but after reading some comments I felt i needed to put my 2 cents and add that Jane is one of my favorite wives because there is so little known about her, as a mother to a small son I can’t imagine how she must have felt before she died after such a terrible childbirth and never getting to enjoy the little baby boy that she must have loved so much. 

 Jane just seems to be like any tudor woman who just wanted a kind husband to provide for her, give her lots of children and live a comfortable life and in my eyes she is just another victim of the tragedy called Henry.

Thanks so much:)

Welcome aboard the Tudor crew train. I hope we get see a lot more of your postings and to hear your views on this fancinating period of British History. We are a mixed bunch, but freindly, and may a bit nutty too, Well I am I really can't speak for the others, but you would be too if you had a Dinosaur for a husband.. LOL..

 

Maggyann said:

I realise this thread has not been active recently but I just thought I might add my twopennethworth as it were.

It occurs to me that Jane first ‘caught Henry’s eye’ when Katherine was still alive and that possibly coached or not by others her initial aim was simply to see the ‘true Queen’ re-instated, the usurper discarded.

I would not say Jane was nasty, nor would say anything similar about Anne. They were women who had been dealt a hand which made them players in the history of their days.

I just think that possibly Jane set out to gently lead Henry back from the brink, religiously and in his marriage(s). It was only once Katherine died that the scheme took on another shade.

Henry was attracted to her and she made use of that, as any woman does when she wants something (c’mon, be honest ladies). Jane was on the side of Katherine, religion was important to her, she wanted to see Mary receive better treatment. I don’t think initially she set out to trap Henry and oust Anne in any personal way.

 

I do hope that has made sense. It takes me ages to get points across with much editing and muttering . You must be grateful though as it is nowhere near as bad as it was a while ago. haha

Good point Maggyann, as it happens this is one forum page I hadn't seen. so yes it's nice to be able to have something new to discuss, especially handy for people like me who are still very new to the forum.. Thank you Maggyann..

Anyway I don't how or who brought Jane to Henry's attention, Yes Jane was in KOA household, but she was just one of many people who were in her household, I'm sure that if he had wanted to notice her he would of.

Jane like so many of KOA's ladies were dismissed when Henry became enamoured of Anne Boleyn, and really wasn't that interested in who was sacked he just wanted KOA's household decreased so that he could prove a point not only to Anne but to Katherine too, that he was deadly serious in wanting an annulment/divorce, and some of KOA's ladies transfered in to Anne's household basically because they probably had no where else to go, but Jane it seems wasn't one of them, and went back home to Wiltshire. Jane's brother's were of course at court but I don't know exactly what role they actually played at court but they must have somehow flattered Henry's ego enough for him to advance them etc. Henry certainly wouldn't have paid a visit to one of his bottom wiper's houses, so the Seymours must have held noted positions in the court.. I think their father Sir John Seymour was with Henry in the days of Henry's heady youth when he went to France to bag himself a few French prizes, but as far as Edward and Thomas go I just think they were at court as many young men who father's held titles to find themselves a good match, wife wise. Although Edward had already been married to Katherine Fillol, who it is alleged Sir John had seduced thus putting and end to that marriage.

Anyway whatever it was I think Henry really only started to notice Jane when he went to Wulf Hall, Jane being the complete opposite of Anne in the sence that she was docile and gentle, was a stark contrast between Anne abrasive and brash temper, and I think it was that which possibly the attraction, where as Jane wouldn't question why she was being asked to fetch water or whatever, whereas Anne would rail against it and generally get stroppy

. To be honest I don't think Jane did anything to try and tempt Henry away from Anne, far from it in fact she made it clear that she wouldn't become his mistress, and if Henry had truly loved Anne as he claimed he wouldn't have wanted to be with anyone else anyway, Certainly when he first married Anne he didn't cast his eye elsewhere, perhaps if Elizabeth had been a boy he would have still been with her and not bothered with anyone else, but I rather think he would have.. Anne was getting on in years but she still had at least 8/10 years left for childbearing, but I feel that Henry had tired of Anne even before he met Jane. Jane just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Did Henry do wrong in insisting that Jane came to court to serve Anne, as she had KOA. Yes but I don't think the outcome would have been different if he hadn't. Anne of course saw Jane as a rival to get rid of, I think she tried or did manage to get her sent away temporarly too?

However Anne must of got wind of the fact that Henry was getting tired of her and put Jane on her to do list, as getting Henry to love her as he once loved her back again became her main priority. Rumour has it she actually drugged Henry one night to get him to sleep with her, again that may or may not be true, but either way Henry had had enough of Anne and her tempestous nature and wanted someone to love him for himself, and not for what he could give her.

 Jane was as I said very docile in nature and that appealed to Henry, is it that she in some way reminded him of KOA? KOA had a very docile and conforming nature as she was taught to be in her youth by her mother, but KOA also had a strength of charather that Jane hadn't got so maybe that was the reason that Henry found her all the more attractive when she back came to court to serve Anne, who must have given Jane a bit of a bad time of it.

The fact that she must have taken Anne's rantings and raving's at her (which I feel Anne must have done) with grace and good humour, must have drove Henry into to a frenzy for Jane. I said in another one of my postings that I felt that Henry was more into the thrill of the chase where woman were concerned, and I think this is quite possibly one of those times.

He was bowled over by Jane and her humility and said I've got to have her at any cost, in this case it was Anne's head.. But seriously I don't think Jane was anything whatsoever with Anne's downfall.

Did Jane feel anything for the lost of Anne who some felt Jane was the cause of, possibly, but she knew that Anne's temper was more to do with it then herself, and I think Henry did actually talk with Jane about his problems concerning Anne. Making Jane feel sorry for him, in short Henry was like a lost little boy, stuck between a rock and hard place and not knowing what to do for the best. Jane possibly soothed away his troubles and possibly was quite motherly towards him (hope that makes sence)

When he married Jane he as happy, as he got the family life which I think he wanted and when Jane got pregnant he felt that it was miracle, the crowning moment (Jane's especially) of which was Jane giving birth to a son.

I do feel sorry for Jane dying like she did, and I also think that her death must have effected little Edward too, obvisously he heard about her and her life from others and perhaps more so from his Uncles. Edward I feel grew up in awe of his father, but not being able to do what most children do i.e sit on their father's laps (although I think he'd have a hard job finding Henry's lap it would have been more like a shelf than a lap) listening to stories of great feats of daring do. Henry I should imagine was a bit like a porcupine able to shoot his spikes at all those who said something he didn't like, so Edward (as I think Elizabeth and possibly Mary too) must have felt that he/ they were forever walking on eggshells around his father. I don't think Edward actually mentioned his mother to Henry, for fear of getting a quill up his backside.

Which makes me wonder how did Edward feel towards his father after K.H's execution, granted he wouldn't have been very old not quite 3 when K.H came to court and not quite 5 when K.H was gone, but children in the Tudor age had to grow up and grow up fast too, so I don't think he would have been to young to understand, that one day there was a flighty teenage/young twenties girl at court sitting on Henry's knee and dancing and laughing, making a fuss of him (which I think she must have done, she certainly did Elizabeth, so I don't think she would have left Edward out, that would have been spiteful and I don't think even Katherine would be that cruel) and then the next day gone with Henry shooting arrows at all who came near him) Which leads me to another question (You can't say I don't keep your old grey matter working folks) Just how did the deaths of KOA A.B, JS  K.H affect the royal children, we know Elizabeth's thoughts, but Mary's and more so Edward's although KOA A.B was dead before he was born but he would have known about her from others, so he must have had some feelings about it. How did the death of K.P affect them? and what were their feeling towards AOC (Maggyann I'm certainly going to give you some real headaches) I think I've given a rough idea on Edward's feelings towards his mothers death, but I would appreicaite any other views and the views on Mary and Elizabeth thoughts too.

The only real motherly love he had was from Sybil Penn and K.P and again she wasn't really in his life that long, only from about 1542ish as she came to court just after her Husband's death Lord Latimer till her death in 1548, and of course she wasn't at court after Henry's death so didn't see Edward much if at all. Edward must have felt her death as really she was perhaps the only mother he really knew..He was close to Sybil Penn but even he knew that she was just a servant like anyone else around him.

I think that Henry did truly love Jane, the fact that he expressed little to no ambition in wanting to get married again for almost 2 years after her death does speak that he did love her, but I think Cromwell's constant nagging at him to marry again and the fact that Edward was not as strong as they had hoped, I'm not sure but I think Edward became quite sick and came close to death at one point during Henry's 2 years of widowership and that perhaps also made him realise just how important it was to have other children.  

Which again leads to yet another question.(here we go again). Why did Henry think that girls couldn't rule as affectively as boys?

KOA had already proved that a woman was just as affective at ruling as a man. It was her plan (for want of a better word) that won the battle of Flodden, whilst Henry was in France, Henry send KOA a live Duke, KOA sent the coat of a dead King,(she actually wanted to send Henry the body of James 4th) so I more than think KOA proved a point where woman were concerned.

Boleyn said:

Jane like so many of KOA's ladies were dismissed when Henry became enamoured of Anne Boleyn, and really wasn't that interested in who was sacked he just wanted KOA's household decreased so that he could prove a point not only to Anne but to Katherine too, that he was deadly serious in wanting an annulment/divorce, and some of KOA's ladies transfered in to Anne's household basically because they probably had no where else to go, but Jane it seems wasn't one of them, and went back home to Wiltshire. Jane's brother's were of course at court but I don't know exactly what role they actually played at court but they must have somehow flattered Henry's ego enough for him to advance them etc. Henry certainly wouldn't have paid a visit to one of his bottom wiper's houses, so the Seymours must have held noted positions in the court.. I think their father Sir John Seymour was with Henry in the days of Henry's heady youth when he went to France to bag himself a few French prizes, but as far as Edward and Thomas go I just think they were at court as many young men who father's held titles to find themselves a good match, wife wise. Although Edward had already been married to Katherine Fillol, who it is alleged Sir John had seduced thus putting and end to that marriage.
Anyway whatever it was I think Henry really only started to notice Jane when he went to Wulf Hall, Jane being the complete opposite of Anne in the sence that she was docile and gentle, was a stark contrast between Anne abrasive and brash temper, and I think it was that which possibly the attraction, where as Jane wouldn't question why she was being asked to fetch water or whatever, whereas Anne would rail against it and generally get stroppy

. To be honest I don't think Jane did anything to try and tempt Henry away from Anne, far from it in fact she made it clear that she wouldn't become his mistress, and if Henry had truly loved Anne as he claimed he wouldn't have wanted to be with anyone else anyway, Certainly when he first married Anne he didn't cast his eye elsewhere, perhaps if Elizabeth had been a boy he would have still been with her and not bothered with anyone else, but I rather think he would have.. Anne was getting on in years but she still had at least 8/10 years left for childbearing, but I feel that Henry had tired of Anne even before he met Jane. Jane just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Did Henry do wrong in insisting that Jane came to court to serve Anne, as she had KOA. Yes but I don't think the outcome would have been different if he hadn't. Anne of course saw Jane as a rival to get rid of, I think she tried or did manage to get her sent away temporarly too?

However Anne must of got wind of the fact that Henry was getting tired of her and put Jane on her to do list, as getting Henry to love her as he once loved her back again became her main priority. Rumour has it she actually drugged Henry one night to get him to sleep with her, again that may or may not be true, but either way Henry had had enough of Anne and her tempestous nature and wanted someone to love him for himself, and not for what he could give her.

 Jane was as I said very docile in nature and that appealed to Henry, is it that she in some way reminded him of KOA? KOA had a very docile and conforming nature as she was taught to be in her youth by her mother, but KOA also had a strength of charather that Jane hadn't got so maybe that was the reason that Henry found her all the more attractive when she back came to court to serve Anne, who must have given Jane a bit of a bad time of it.

The fact that she must have taken Anne's rantings and raving's at her (which I feel Anne must have done) with grace and good humour, must have drove Henry into to a frenzy for Jane. I said in another one of my postings that I felt that Henry was more into the thrill of the chase where woman were concerned, and I think this is quite possibly one of those times.

He was bowled over by Jane and her humility and said I've got to have her at any cost, in this case it was Anne's head.. But seriously I don't think Jane was anything whatsoever with Anne's downfall.

Did Jane feel anything for the lost of Anne who some felt Jane was the cause of, possibly, but she knew that Anne's temper was more to do with it then herself, and I think Henry did actually talk with Jane about his problems concerning Anne. Making Jane feel sorry for him, in short Henry was like a lost little boy, stuck between a rock and hard place and not knowing what to do for the best. Jane possibly soothed away his troubles and possibly was quite motherly towards him (hope that makes sence)

When he married Jane he as happy, as he got the family life which I think he wanted and when Jane got pregnant he felt that it was miracle, the crowning moment (Jane's especially) of which was Jane giving birth to a son.

I do feel sorry for Jane dying like she did, and I also think that her death must have effected little Edward too, obvisously he heard about her and her life from others and perhaps more so from his Uncles. Edward I feel grew up in awe of his father, but not being able to do what most children do i.e sit on their father's laps (although I think he'd have a hard job finding Henry's lap it would have been more like a shelf than a lap) listening to stories of great feats of daring do. Henry I should imagine was a bit like a porcupine able to shoot his spikes at all those who said something he didn't like, so Edward (as I think Elizabeth and possibly Mary too) must have felt that he/ they were forever walking on eggshells around his father. I don't think Edward actually mentioned his mother to Henry, for fear of getting a quill up his backside.

I think that Henry did truly love Jane, the fact that he expressed little to no ambition in wanting to get married again for almost 2 years after her death does speak that he did love her, but I think Cromwell's constant nagging at him to marry again and the fact that Edward was not as strong as they had hoped, I'm not sure but I think Edward became quite sick and came close to death at one point during Henry's 2 years of widowership and that perhaps also made him realise just how important it was to have other children.  

Jane wasn't removed from Anne's service after the change over – she still remained at court the whole time. Henry already knew Jane, and she was most likely not at Wulf Hall. Anne had accompanied Henry when they visited Jane's family home, and were said to be merry together.

Jane did have a part in attracting the king… Here is the evidence…

Chapys – 17th Feb 1536; (On Anne's miscarriage in January) “…whilst others imagine that the fear of the King treating her as he treated his late Queen, – which is not unlikely, considering his behaviour towards a damsel of the Court, named Miss Seymour, to whom he has latterly made very valuable presents – is the real cause of it all.” Jane was courting Henry before the miscarriage.

Chapys 1st April 1536; “But I hear the young lady (Seymour) has been well tutored and warned by those among this King's courtiers who hate the concubine, telling her not in any wise to give in to the King's fancy unless he makes her his Queen, upon which the damsel is quite resolved.She has likewise been advised to tell the King frankly, and without reserve, how much his subjects abominate the marriage contracted with the concubine and that not one considered it legitimate, and that this declaration ought to be made in the presence of witnesses of the titled nobility of this kingdom, who are to attest the truth of her statements should the King request them on their oath and fealty to do so.”

Chapys 29th April 1536; “…and trying to persuade Miss Seymour and her friends to accomplish her ruin.”

Jane happily lied to Henry, poisoning him against Anne. She knew what she was doing…

As Starky says “Anne might talk of killing Catherine; the gentle Jane went further and was an accessory-after-the-fact to the judicial murder of her predecessor.”

Rumour has it she actually drugged Henry one night to get him to sleep with her, again that may or may not be true, but either way Henry had had enough of Anne and her tempestuous nature and wanted someone to love him for himself, and not for what he could give her.