I don't think Henry leaving Katherine is anything to celebrate but it's what happened and Henry used the age gap thing against her all the time.

Elliemarianna said:

 At least Anne didn’t actively encourage the King to commit the murder of Catherine or her daughter. 

 

Anne may not have been encouraging the king to commit murder but Chapuys said Anne was actively seeking the death of KOA and Mary:

 “I don't suppose the King but the Concubine (who has often sworn the death of both, and who will never be at rest till she has gained her end, suspecting that owing to the King's fickleness there is no stability in her position as long as either of the said ladies lives), will have even better means than before of executing her accursed purpose by administering poison, because they would be less on their guard; and, 'moreover, she might do it without suspicion, for it would be supposed when the said ladies had agreed to everything that the King wished and were reconciled and favorably treated after they had renounced their rights, there could be no fear of their doing any mischief, and thus no suspicion would arise of their having received foul play.”

From: 'Henry VIII: January 1536, 21-25', Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII, Volume 10: January-June 1536 (1887), pp. 47-64

 

 So, according to Chapuys, Anne was actively contemplating murder.  If we are to believe Chapuys' statements that Jane was whispering in the king's ear for the removal, and/or the death of Anne, then don't we have to believe him when he claims Anne was searching for a way to kill KOA and Mary? I don't buy much of anything Chapuys wrote home about.  He was a gossip. These stories came to him secondhand or he made stories up. (as I think he did with the quote I put above)  He only cared about Jane because he thought she could bring Mary back to court. 

 

We don't know for sure if Jane whispered in Henry's ear that Anne should be removed.  Chapuys says Carew was trying to persuade Jane and her friends to accomplish Anne's ruin.  Not that she did it.  I'm not convinced that Jane had to say anything to Henry.  It just seems to me that by Jane pestering him with Anne's removal Henry would have gotten pissed off.  He didn't want another woman whispering in his ear.  We don't know that she told Henry Anne must die.  All we know is that Henry chose her to be his next wife.  That's unfortunate for any woman.

 

I agree with Bill, the men of Henry's court saw a way of ending the hold Anne had on him by placing Jane in his path. We certainly know that the men around Jane wanted an end to Anne's influence.  Henry was already disenchanted with Anne; and Jane was the perfect bait.

I also agree with Ellie.  Jane did know what her faction was trying to accomplish.  Her part in the downfall was to distract Henry and keep his head turned away from Anne, and she did a bang-up job.  By the time the verdict in the trial of Anne came around, Jane certainly knew Anne was going to die.  Maybe she believed Henry when he talked of Anne's betrayal.  Anne more than likely believed Henry when he said his marriage to Katherine was a sin in God's eyes. 

 I can't condemn Jane anymore than I can condemn Anne for the way they made it to the throne. At least Anne loved the king. I don't believe Jane was in love with Henry.

 

Which leads me back to the original question.  Yes, Jane and Henry would have stayed married after Edward's birth.  No, she would not have been happy.  I don't think she ever was.  At least she would have her son with her for awhile. I think she would want more children.  Yes, Henry would cheat on her and she would look the other way, probably thanking her God that he went to someone else. 

Jane did what she was told, so I'm sure she whispered in Henry's ear. Carew wasn't the only person telling her to speak openly to the King about Anne, and no doubt they would have nagged her if she didn't do as she was told. Chapys supported Jane, so I don't see why he would lie about her. With Anne, he lied because he wanted to blacken her name.

“…but the Concubine (who has often sworn the death of both, and who will never be at rest till she has gained her end, suspecting that owing to the King's fickleness there is no stability in her position as long as either of the said ladies lives)” – I'm sure Anne had said some things like this, considering it was true that while Catherine lived, Henry could go back to her, and they were a threat to her.  Anne had a sting in her tail, we all know that, but she obviously didn't act on it. Anne probably let of steam verbally.

If Henry would listen to anyone telling him his dearly beloved wife was a adulterous witch, I'm sure he would most likely believe his next bit of skirt, more than an ambitious courtier… It made sense that 'innocent, naive and pious' Jane was the one to bring it up. 

Henry wanted her gone and Cromwell knew this so he made it happen and gathered all the rumors to throw at her – just to make it harder for Anne to prove herself innocent. I blame it all on Henry but it wasn't just him completely.

Thank you, Carolyn.

Mya Elise said:

Henry wanted her gone and Cromwell knew this so he made it happen and gathered all the rumors to throw at her – just to make it harder for Anne to prove herself innocent. I blame it all on Henry but it wasn’t just him completely.

Interesting thoughts here.. Yes I agree that Henry wanted rid of Anne, but although we all know this it was really Cromwell's poison that got rid of Anne, Henry couldn't have cared less how it was done, as long as it was done.

Yes Henry tried to blacken Anne's name, but it was Cromwell who took all the blame for Anne downfall and death

Henry just went along with it..

As for Jane, I believe she was just another pawn in a game of chess, yes she might have poured some poison in Henry's ears over Anne, but he probably already had heard what was being said or invented around the court about Anne. So by Jane repeating these lies just made Henry want to believe them anyway. In this respect this made Jane no better than Anne over the Wolsey affair.

It does seem very strange to me that when the gossip concerning Catherine Howard first surfaced, Henry at first dismissed them as jealous rumours, and that it was only after Cranmer mentioned the name Derham, that Henry ordered an investigation into Catherine's Behaviour.

Now back to Jane, yes I believe Edward's birth would have meant that she was safe, as again like Bessie Blount, and possibly Mary Boleyn, she proved that he was capable of having sons, but would have been faithful to her because of this? No he wouldn't. A wife's duty was to produce as many children as possible, so even if Jane had survived childbirth by the time she had been churched etc, she would most likely be pregnant again very shortly after.

Henry would have continued to play the field, and Jane would have had to put up with his various affairs and lump it basically.

Mya Elise: I love the way you end some of your postings with “just a theory of mine”.. Sweetheart that's what these forums are for we all put forward our thoughts and feelings, and theory's about what did and didn't go on. We none of us will ever really know what went on in the Tudor courts, but it's good for us to vent our spleen over what we think may have gone on, so you keep theorying all you like…

It's also nice to see some Gentlemen on here. Nice to think that there some male champions for Anne Boleyn too..

Mya Elise said:

LOL, Boleyn, I always end my posts that way cause I think sometimes my “theories” may offend others and I in no way want anyone to feel offended or like I don’t respect their opinions, cause I do. Everyone has them…like I don’t eat steak but alot of others do, but that doesn’t mean it makes me or them bad people for liking or not liking steak. (May not be te best example!)

But, anyways, my opinions on Jane are so mixed and they change all the time! Sometimes I think she’s a an calculating evil witch but other times I feel like maybe she was just a pawn and maybe I’m not being very fair towards her. It depends on what day I decide to read this or that or watch this so it’s like always….confusing for me. When it comes to Anne though i’ll always love her the most and be on her side but that doesn’t mean that all the other wives are horrible and I don’t like them,no.

Strangely enough you aren't on your own, when it comes to meat.. I won't eat pork I hate it, but I will eat bacon,(smoked) and will only eat smoked, honey roasted or Bavarian ham otherwise forget it.

Yep I agree with you 100% all the way about Anne she's my heroine. The other wives had their merits, and each give us a different view to how the Tudor court was during their tenures, but Anne impression on the court left a lasting reminder of a woman who wielded supreme power, which is still felt today over 500 years later. Perhaps Henry was right in calling her witch LOL. Catherine of Aragon we know a lot about because of who she was and where she came from, but from the time Anne appeared until her death she injected something into history that simply cannot be washed away. Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard,and Katherine Parr, really didn't do that much and their only real claim to fame is that they were all wives of Henry 8th, Jane seymour giving Henry his only living son was enough I suppose to cement her claim to fame, Anne of Cleves was know as the disgarded and unwanted wife Catherine Howard being the cousin of Anne Boleyn maybe might give her a little more notareity,than her predessors and that she met the same sorry end as Anne but not much more than that Katherine Parr, well ok she cemented the family back together and and ruled as regent whilst Henry went to France, but apart from that there wasn't the magic that Anne managed to spin around the court..

I often wonder just what it was that drove Henry to pull apart and a kingdom for Anne only to turn around and rip it all to shreds again to get rid of her?

I guess your've seen the two part drama starring Ray Winstone? There is a scene there when Anne comes to the court to ask for the kings blessing to marry Henry Percy? When she looks up to Henry you can see a sort of power come from Helena's (Anne's) eyes which seems to completely bewitch him to the point where he tell's Wolsey to break the match.. I wonder if this was the case in real life? and that was exactly how it happened? There is also the scene when they are dancing together just after they get married where the love between them is so strong that it seems like a match made in heaven.. Yeah I know that both Ray and Helena are playing parts, but how do we know again that this was exactly how it was between them.. I wish I could get hold of that music they are dancing to it's beautiful..

Anyway I've got to go and rustle up some food,  hungry dinosaurs (That's what I call my husband because he is) and kids tend to make a low whining noise which only seems to stop when they are sat at the table eating..

KP was a published author* in a time where women weren't educated. That is cause to celebrate her life…Plus she was influenatial in the education of both Elizabeth and Jane Grey. That she supported female education beyond the traditional wifey-stuff into the male preserve set the trend for future generations.

* Though had she not been queen, she almost certainly have not been published.

Yeah, Anne and Catherine would've gotten along great…they had alot in common and wasn't Catherine like another mother figure for Elizabeth? If so, then theres another common interest meaning their love for Elizabeth.

If they only had met….

Yes! Exactly, as long as Henry wasn't involved.

See I don't like saying this but sometimes I think that if Henry had died that day he fell off his horse then maybe it would of been better for alot of people including Anne and the rest of the wives who had to deal with him. But then again sooo much would of been different and he obviously didn't die for a reason. I don't know, I just like thinking about all the different possibilities…