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9:39 pm
November 18, 2010
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On the morning of Anne's
execution, Henry attired for the chase, and attended by his huntsmen,
waited in the neighbourhood of Epping or Richmond—tradition
points to both these places—and immediately he heard the boom of the
signal gun, which was to assure him that she breathed no more, exclaimed
in exultation, “Uncouple the hounds, and away!” and paying no regard to
the direction taken by the game, galloped off with his courtiers at
full speed to Wolf Hall, which he reached at night-fall. Early the next
morning, Saturday, May the twentieth, 1536, and attired in the gay
robes of a bridegroom, he conducted Jane Seymour to the altar of
Tottenham church, Wilts, and in the presence of Sir John Russell,
and other members of his obsequious privy council, made her his bride.
From Wolf Hall, the wedding party proceeded through Winchester, by an
easy journey, to London; where on the twenty-ninth of May, a great court
was held, at which Jane was introduced as Queen.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/janeseymour
I've seen versions of this on several websites. My biggest doubt, apart from the historical evidence, is that Richmond to the Wiltshire/ Berkshire boarder is over an hour on the M4 by a car doing 70 mph*. The idea of Henry riding that distance in 8-10 hours is frankly ridiculous.
In Lauren Gardiner's Plain Jane, a visit to WulfHall where Jane is feted before returning to London.Did this visit take place ? if it did, could this cause the confusion?
I haven't found any mention of Jane being far from London in any serious work or even Wikipedia.
* DH used to work in Richmond when we lived in Swindon.So that trip was very familiar to us.
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11:14 am
February 24, 2010
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I have seen those versions on sites. I tend to believe Starkey.
This is from Starkey's book Six Wives:
Jane was set up in Cromwell's old apartments in March 1536 with her brother Edward and his wife Anne. When Anne was arrested, Jane was moved to Beddington. Carew's home. On May 14th, the day before the trial, she was lodged at Chelsea, Sir Thomas More's former house, which is on the river, only a short boat-ride from York Place. On the 14th, Henry told Jane, at 3:00 he would send her news of Anne's condemnation. Bryan showed up at that time with the “good news.” On the 17th, Cranmer pronounced Anne's marriage to Henry null and void. On the 19th he issued a dispensation for Henry and Jane to marry. “That same day came the best news of all: Anne was beheaded. Chapuys said, “The King, immediately on receiving the news of the decapitation of Anne, entered his barge and went to Jane at Chelsea.” “The following day, Saturday, May 20th, Henry and Jane were betrothed at 9 am at York Place, according to Chapuys, and 'secretly at Chelsea' according to the chronicler Wriothesley, who, as both a herald and the cousin of Cromwell's right-hand man Thomas Wriothesley, was very well informed. On Tuesday the 30th she was brought to York Place, where she was married “in the Queen's Closet'. On Friday June 2nd, 'the Queen sat abroad as Queen at dinner and was served with her own servants. And they were sworn that day.' Later the King and his third wife took boat to Greenwich. On June 4th, Jane was formally proclaimed Queen and processed with Henry to mass.
2:03 pm
November 23, 2010
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Sharon said:
I have seen those versions on sites. I tend to believe Starkey.
This is from Starkey's book Six Wives:
“The following day, Saturday, May 20th, Henry and Jane were betrothed at 9 am at York Place, according to Chapuys, and 'secretly at Chelsea' according to the chronicler Wriothesley, who, as both a herald and the cousin of Cromwell's right-hand man Thomas Wriothesley, was very well informed. On Tuesday the 30th she was brought to York Place, where she was married “in the Queen's Closet'. On Friday June 2nd, 'the Queen sat abroad as Queen at dinner and was served with her own servants. And they were sworn that day.' Later the King and his third wife took boat to Greenwich. On June 4th, Jane was formally proclaimed Queen and processed with Henry to mass.
so it wasnt at Wolf Hall then, everywhere i have read states that the king rode out to wolf hall and was brothed there the day after anne excution.
very interesting as i am currently doing a lot of research on jane at the moment
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2:56 pm
November 18, 2010
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Some of those websites appear to be C&P History homework sites too. And that's frightening to me.
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3:04 pm
November 18, 2010
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Sharon said:
I have seen those versions on sites. I tend to believe Starkey.
This is from Starkey's book Six Wives:
Jane was set up in Cromwell's old apartments in March 1536 with her brother Edward and his wife Anne. When Anne was arrested, Jane was moved to Beddington. Carew's home. On May 14th, the day before the trial, she was lodged at Chelsea, Sir Thomas More's former house, which is on the river, only a short boat-ride from York Place. On the 14th, Henry told Jane, at 3:00 he would send her news of Anne's condemnation. Bryan showed up at that time with the “good news.” On the 17th, Cranmer pronounced Anne's marriage to Henry null and void. On the 19th he issued a dispensation for Henry and Jane to marry. “That same day came the best news of all: Anne was beheaded. Chapuys said, “The King, immediately on receiving the news of the decapitation of Anne, entered his barge and went to Jane at Chelsea.” “The following day, Saturday, May 20th, Henry and Jane were betrothed at 9 am at York Place, according to Chapuys, and 'secretly at Chelsea' according to the chronicler Wriothesley, who, as both a herald and the cousin of Cromwell's right-hand man Thomas Wriothesley, was very well informed. On Tuesday the 30th she was brought to York Place, where she was married “in the Queen's Closet'. On Friday June 2nd, 'the Queen sat abroad as Queen at dinner and was served with her own servants. And they were sworn that day.' Later the King and his third wife took boat to Greenwich. On June 4th, Jane was formally proclaimed Queen and processed with Henry to mass.
That's also the view of Alison Weir too.
Love your name….mainly cos it's mine.
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4:41 pm
November 18, 2010
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wah! I lost my post…..
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5:37 pm
November 18, 2010
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Clarebear said:
Sharon said:
I have seen those versions on sites. I tend to believe Starkey.
This is from Starkey's book Six Wives:
“The following day, Saturday, May 20th, Henry and Jane were betrothed at 9 am at York Place, according to Chapuys, and 'secretly at Chelsea' according to the chronicler Wriothesley, who, as both a herald and the cousin of Cromwell's right-hand man Thomas Wriothesley, was very well informed. On Tuesday the 30th she was brought to York Place, where she was married “in the Queen's Closet'. On Friday June 2nd, 'the Queen sat abroad as Queen at dinner and was served with her own servants. And they were sworn that day.' Later the King and his third wife took boat to Greenwich. On June 4th, Jane was formally proclaimed Queen and processed with Henry to mass.
so it wasnt at Wolf Hall then, everywhere i have read states that the king rode out to wolf hall and was brothed there the day after anne excution.
very interesting as i am currently doing a lot of research on jane at the moment
Not Wikipedia….nor most books. Websites are not renouned for thier accuracy, however. Which is why lots of schools and universities don't allow websites as cites for essays and thesis.
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5:51 pm
November 18, 2010
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Using Googlemaps for distances and Wikipedia for horse speeds I would like to present the following. All thes detail are 21st cent roads and the horse data is for 21st cent horses. The routes are plotted using non motorway roads which didn't exist in Tudor times.
Tudor roads were generally little more than cart tracks, rutted and during wet weather easily waterlogged. Tudor horses were usually more in the heavy horse style, think Shire. When you look at modern horses, we have an extra 500 years of selected beeding to give us the race horses and hunting horses , showjumping horses and draft horses.
I'm using Richmond to Savenake by the shortest non motroway route at 67 miles and the time in a car of 2 hours 20. Epping to Savernake is 97 miles and 3 hours 20.
Horse speed are
Walk 4 mph
trot 8 mph
canter 10-17 mph
gallop 25-30 mph.
IN the following exercises I will be using the lower horse speeds.
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5:54 pm
November 18, 2010
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Epping Forest to Savernake
Epping is east of London
the distance I am using is 97 miles. Googlemaps gives a driving time of 3 hours 20 mins.
walk is 24 and a quarter hours
trot is just over 12 hours
canter is nearly 10 hours
gallop is nealy 4 hours
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5:58 pm
November 18, 2010
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Richmond to Savernake
Richmond is west of London
i am using the 67 mile and 2 hr 20 journey
Walk is nearly 17 hours
trot is 8 and a half
canter is nearly 7 hours
gallop is nearly 3 hours.
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6:17 pm
November 18, 2010
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In the intereasts of simplicity I think we can discard galloping since that would affect the health of the horse and walking since that is definately outside the propsed time scale.
Since Anne was executed at 9am, if Henry was at Epping it would be beyond the sound of the cannons and he would need to rely on a relay of riders to reach him with the news. Henry would want to appear as a compassionate king and to pray for Anne's soul. That and taking time to gather his attendants before setting off.
So in both cases I propose that the ride would start at 10 am. Sunset on May 19 is 9 pm/8 pm GMT. So we have around 8 hours of good light and 2 where the sunlight is dimishing or nearly gone.
I f Henry left Epping at 10 and rode straight through without stopping, it would take 10-12 hours. This time frame doesn't fit the stated time frame once I allow for stopping to rest or exchange the horses or the comfort of the king or his attendants.
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6:35 pm
November 18, 2010
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Switching to Richmond
Again I doubt if you could hear the cannons even though Richmond is closer to the Tower than Epping. So again I'm going for a 10 am start allowing for prayer and making sure every-one is present.
The journey is shorter between 7 and 8 and a half hours, without stopping. So given the time frame Richmond is fesible.
However
Neither of my scenarios have allowed for stopping. If you add 2 one hour stops to change the horses, eat and use the facilities then Richmomd to Severnake starts to be doubtful too. I haven't taken into account how much longer it would take using tracks , as stated earlier the figures are based on modern roads and navigation. As well as modern horses.
In conclusion I I'm still very doubtful about such a ride taking place in a day. Perhaps a king's messenger with several changes of horse would be able to do the journey. But Henry and his attendants simply would not be able to cover the distance.
These calculations just re-inforce just how far the distances are when you look at an earlier time frame. It's no wonder why people rarely left thier own villages.
Sorry for the multi-posts, I kept losing the longer ones.
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7:18 pm
November 18, 2010
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Excerpted from:
Lancelott, Francis. “Jane Seymour.”
The Queens of England and Their Times. Vol I.
New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1858. 400-403.
The quote I used in my OP gives this as the source.
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10:59 am
July 9, 2009
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Another issue raised in the OP is when Henry and Jane married. I just read that they were married the day after Anne's execution in a book I'm currently reading on Catherine Parr, and as has been pointed out, many books and websites tell this version of the story. But Starkey says they married on the 30th. Either way was too soon, IMO.
Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.
11:41 am
February 24, 2010
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Melissa, I've seen that a many times. I guess I'll stick with my history books written by the real historians.
Anyanka, Thanks for all the info, too.
2:07 pm
November 23, 2010
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great information above guys, very interesting !!!
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