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4:20 pm
November 18, 2010
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One of the things that sticks out to me about KoA, was her refusual to allow Chapuys to get the Emperor involved in an armed revolt to restore her and Mary.
If KoA had allowed a rebellion to be fought on her behalf, what do you think would have happened?
How would the French reacted?
And Scotland?
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2:34 pm
December 5, 2010
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Interesting… The Emperor was ridiculously powerful, so I think that even without the support of France and Scotland. The French might have joined against Henry, but I don't think they were very keen on Charles V either… I'm not sure what the Scots would have done. They weren't a particulary powerful country, if they sided with the Empire and England won (unlikely), they would probably lose a great battle with the English, but if they won (more likely methinks!) then they'd have the Empire with them for a time and might gain a good alliance through marriage and could gain land in England. If they sided with the English and the Empire won, I don't think much would change, if England won, maybe they could have peace… Or maybe they'd just stay out… France didn't reallt like England or the Empire, so could always just follow the Scots… Not too sure.. What do you think??
I wish to confess to you and tell you my secret, which is that I am no angel. -Queen Elizabeth I
5:10 am
October 12, 2010
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Scotland and France were traditional allies.. Whatever the French did, the Scots would have more than likely sided with them.
France didn't really need a reason to go at it with the Spanish. They probably would have sided with Henry.
It really could have turned into an massive all out war. How it would have turned out though is anyone's guess.
11:08 am
February 24, 2010
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Thank goodness Katherine did not call on Spain for armed rebellion against England. The English might be speaking Spanish today.
If France was forced to choose a side, it would have been with England. Scotland might have harried the borders a bit, just to give Henry more grief, but I think they would have stayed out of the conflict until forced to make a choice; and in the end they would have sided with France andby default, England. The Scots were allied with France and neither country would side with Spain.
However, if France and Scotland came in from the north against England and Spain, and Spain came in from the south against everyone…Wow, England would have become a wasteland. Katherine would not have wanted war brought to England in her name.
I'm not all that convinced Spain would have gone to war for her. If she asked and they refused her the aid, it would have been most embarrassing for Katherine. Either way it would have been ugly.
2:33 pm
June 7, 2010
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I agree, Sharon. I am not sure how willing Charles V would have gone to war for Catherine of Aragon. While he and his allies may have used strong language against Henry and his treatment of Catherine, going to war was another thing entirely.
I would have been embarassing for Catherine if she had asked Charles to come to her aid, and he denied her. Her power would have diminished entirely.
Mind you, Charles V did invade Rome, sack the city, and kidnap the Pope. While this was for his own means, it did help stall anullment proceedings between Henry and Catherine.
But, as Sharon pointed out, Catherine would not want to bring war to a country and people she loved, and who loved her. If Charles V invaded and slaughtered the English, Catherine would have lost the people's love and support. The English people's support for Catherine was the one unwavering thing in her life.
Regardless of what happened, Henry wanted rid of her, and he was going to have his way.
"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn
8:29 pm
November 18, 2010
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Kim said:
Scotland and France were traditional allies.. Whatever the French did, the Scots would have more than likely sided with them.
France didn't really need a reason to go at it with the Spanish. They probably would have sided with Henry.
It really could have turned into an massive all out war. How it would have turned out though is anyone's guess.
Scotland at the time of the annulment had a half-English unmarried king James V. Who had a claim to the English throne.
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8:34 pm
November 18, 2010
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Sharon said:
Thank goodness Katherine did not call on Spain for armed rebellion against England. The English might be speaking Spanish today.
It only took us 300 yrs to get rid of Norman French as the language of nobility. I expect Spanish would have lasted a much shorter time before being replaced.
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4:41 pm
March 9, 2011
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I consider Katherine's disavowal of violence proof of her misplaced confidence in Henry VIII. She probably expected him to “do the right thing” once he “came to his senses.” It's also pretty plain she loved Henry, but she also loved England. I doubt she wanted to subject the English to a war.
Katherine had outlasted several of Henry's dalliances. There was no reason to believe her husband would dump her and disown their daughter because he was infatuated with one of her maids.
11:00 pm
November 18, 2010
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IN Joanna Denny’s Anne Boleyn, a new life of England’s tragic queen, Denny states that when KoA was writing to the Pope that phrases like ” We await a remedy from God and from Your Holiness… It must come speedily or the time will be past ” she was comitting a treasonable act by asking the pope to lead an invasion.
Meanwhile Catherine harangued the Pope to invade England: indisputably an act of high treason.Embittered and furious, she threw caution to the wind, dispising the English as wayward sheep who needed a leader:”We await a remedy from God and from Your Holiness… It must come speedily or the time will be past “
page 239.
Mary had by-passed Chapyus to appeal directly to Charles
She warned her cousin that his victory against Islam would be as nothing compared with supporting her bid for the English throne, which would bring him far more glory. He must ” take brief order and apply a remedy” or esle their cause would be lost
page 240
I get the impression that Denny doesn’t like KoA but could these words be considered to be an invition for an invasion or just the appeals of desperate women for succor?
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8:20 am
June 3, 2013
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Anyanka said …or just the appeals of desperate women for succor?
KOA was not always the ‘put upon’ wife, she had successfully acted as regent while Henry waged war in France and had made great and terrible war on Scotland – her forces had killed the Scottish King and half the Scots nobility, and her campaign against Scotland is widely acknowledged (and was at the time) as being much more successful than Henry’s.
it is therefore difficult to think of the above as ‘just words’ – she was a war leader, she knew what the words meant coming from a war leader, and she would have known that the Pope would have known that as well.
some bloke down the pub might gobb off about how he’s the big man and how he’s going to punch everyones lights out – and people will dissmiss it as ‘pub hardman’ talk: but if a Prime Minister, and a Prime Minister who has previously taken his country to war, says the same thing, its meaning is very, very different. KOA was not the pub hardman, she was the Prime Minister…
6:32 pm
February 24, 2010
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In Giles Tremlitt’s book, Catherine, he states several times that Katherine did not want war, but was fine with martyrdom. He claims she was always clear that war was not the answer. From Chapuys, who wrote to Charles, “She thinks that she would be irredeemably damned if she took any path that led to war.” She briefly toyed with the idea of “another remedy,” but soon changed her mind. She also wrote to Chapuys about whether the pope should urge war on her behalf. “What I ask for from His Holiness is not war. I would rather die than be the cause of it.”
Charles was quite relieved to hear this.
7:47 pm
January 3, 2012
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What would have K.O.A actually gained if she did ask for a holy war in her name? Whatever the personal feelings the people had for K.O.A. I don’t think for one minute they would allow a Spanish/France? inviation of Britain. Whatever Britain was or wasn’t the one thing it was was fiercely loyal to everything that was British, and I think that the support K.O.A had of the people over Henry’s treatment of her would quickly disappear if she did bring down a holy war on England.
I feel that once she got the bull from the Pope declaring her marriage to Henry good and valid she was happy as all she needed to do really was secure Mary’s rights to the throne, and that was done with the Bull.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
2:07 am
November 18, 2010
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Bob the Builder said
Anyanka said …or just the appeals of desperate women for succor?
KOA was not always the ‘put upon’ wife, she had successfully acted as regent while Henry waged war in France and had made great and terrible war on Scotland – her forces had killed the Scottish King and half the Scots nobility, and her campaign against Scotland is widely acknowledged (and was at the time) as being much more successful than Henry’s.
While that is true..it was 20 years earlier when Katherine was much younger and in better health both physically and mentally. She had been slowly pushed out of Henry’s inner council in the first place by Wolsey and later Anne as well as her own actions and behaviours towards Henry.
it is therefore difficult to think of the above as ‘just words’ – she was a war leader, she knew what the words meant coming from a war leader, and she would have known that the Pope would have known that as well.
some bloke down the pub might gobb off about how he’s the big man and how he’s going to punch everyones lights out – and people will dissmiss it as ‘pub hardman’ talk: but if a Prime Minister, and a Prime Minister who has previously taken his country to war, says the same thing, its meaning is very, very different. KOA was not the pub hardman, she was the Prime Minister…
But in the same way, she was a spent political force, she’d been pushed out of power for a while. Kinda like Tony Blair spouting off threats against Syria. He can’t force any action anymore since his elected mandate has expired. Katherine had systematically been excluded from Henry’s policies since that time. Churchill, for example, would not have won the Falklands War because there was a huge diffence in both politics and war-fare between 1945 and 1982. Thatcher may have had it easier in Desert Storm I.
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2:42 am
November 18, 2010
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Boleyn said
What would have K.O.A actually gained if she did ask for a holy war in her name? Whatever the personal feelings the people had for K.O.A. I don’t think for one minute they would allow a Spanish/France? inviation of Britain. Whatever Britain was or wasn’t the one thing it was was fiercely loyal to everything that was British, and I think that the support K.O.A had of the people over Henry’s treatment of her would quickly disappear if she did bring down a holy war on England.
I feel that once she got the bull from the Pope declaring her marriage to Henry good and valid she was happy as all she needed to do really was secure Mary’s rights to the throne, and that was done with the Bull.
Possibly, had Henry died during the uprising..being regent for Mary until she became 18 and regaining her dwindled political power which Katherine would see as being part of her destiny as being queen of England.
But I agree ..I’m not sure that Katherine had the pulling-power to raise a mighty English army to support a Spanish attempt to over-throw Henry.
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3:06 am
November 18, 2010
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Sharon said
In Giles Tremlitt’s book, Catherine, he states several times that Katherine did not want war, but was fine with martyrdom. He claims she was always clear that war was not the answer. From Chapuys, who wrote to Charles, “She thinks that she would be irredeemably damned if she took any path that led to war.” She briefly toyed with the idea of “another remedy,” but soon changed her mind. She also wrote to Chapuys about whether the pope should urge war on her behalf. “What I ask for from His Holiness is not war. I would rather die than be the cause of it.”
Charles was quite relieved to hear this.
To me..Denny was so proAnne/anti-Katherine that it’s hard to take some of her points seriously.
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6:05 pm
February 24, 2010
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I have read Denny’s book and I agree with you. She did seem to gush over Anne and didn’t have anything nice to say about KOA. Her points are blown out of the water when she doesn’t reveal the rest of the story. The whole story gets in the way sometimes…sigh…
