Oh I don’t deny he loved her and would have felt for her after her death. I think their relationship is so often understated, Katherine was Henry’s great love above all. Henry felt himself the chivalrous knight rescuing his Spanish princess, his damsel in distress, when he so hastily married her after his father’s death. They had been tied together in some way since they were children, they were close, they slept together regularly as her many pregnancies show and he relied upon her. They had a quite equal partnership, and I stand by my view that had Katherine borne him all the sons he wanted Anne would never had come into the picture as anything other than one of his dalliances. And then she would have refused him.
Just to veer wildly off topic I think that Anne and Henry’s ‘romance’ has been overdone. He used the same sort of tactics with Jane when he was trying to snare her, the gifts and wooing, and although I don’t think he wrote her flowery letters, that is probably just how he courted. The reason he stuck by Anne was because he wanted to prove he was correct about his first marriage. Anne was also his intellectual equal and I am sure she loved him well enough as she was able in the situation. I prefer Denny’s view that Henry was a sexual predator and Anne was trying to cope with the situation as best she could at first, but I think Anne eventually thought it her destiny to become Queen. Because people also overlook Anne’s own piety. But Henry tore apart England for the love of her? No.
Most of Henry’s public displays for her, her ennoblement and her coronation, was to force his subjects into agreement with him. Henry always took any criticism from his subjects very personally. Henry tore apart England because he wanted more power and he wanted to prove himself his own master. Anne was in more danger after Katherine’s death (quite a while after Elizabeth’s birth) because in the eyes of many Henry was now technically a widower and free to take a “legitimate” wife. I don’t think he changed so much after Elizabeth’s birth, not outwardly anyway. Most of Anne’s trouble came after the last miscarriage, although they were still stable enough for a while. I am sure Henry talked himself into Anne’s alleged guilt after the incident with Harry Norris.

I was rather interested in John Matusiak’s theory that had Henry handled himself differently with Katherine she may have accepted his request to ‘retire’. So rather than trying to make the marriage invalid, had he pleaded with her to retire in honour and keep Mary as his heir, so he could try for a son with a new wife she may have accepted. I am not so sure, I don’t think Katherine saw a woman on the throne as a problem but it is an interesting theory.

Very well said Olga and Boleyn.
I’m such a cynic when it comes to Henry and love. I think that Henry’s resentment may have begun at Elizabeth’s birth. Not that he showed any sign that he was disappointed, yet. It may have been just a niggling thought, but I think Henry would have started doubting Anne then. By the second miscarriage, the doubts must have started to get worse. By the third, I think he was done with Anne. I don’t think he would willingly have kept another woman who was having one miscarriage after another the way he had kept Katherine. If he had known a way to have rid himself of Katherine earlier, he would have jumped on it. As it was he needed another woman and a break with the pope before he did it. Henry changed the religion of England to suit his own purpose.
When Anne miscarried the last time, he must have thought oops, definitely the wrong woman again, but hey, the right one is waiting in the wings. It has been said that Henry was looking to remove Katherine as early as 1513. I think he feared the catholic church and Spain early on. I just don’t think he knew how to extricate himself from the marriage. He had yet to recognize the totality of his own power. Women were a means to an end for Henry. Henry’s love lasted as long as his loved ones did everything to please him. Once they proved themselves mere mortals, his “love” changed quickly. Maybe he did feel something when Katherine died, a little pang of regret, but that probably went away soon enough.
How anyone could love him baffles me, Olga.

In the early years of Henry’s reign, he was young, goodlooking, atheltic, highly literate, a good dancer, singer, musician..He was the Justin Beiber of his time but with talent. It would be hard to not have a crush with such a charismatic young man. Add in his power and money and he was the ideal embodiment of his era.

KoA was blinded by both her destiny as being queen of England as well as Henry rescuing her from her privations following Arthur’s death.

Anne was less susecptable to Henry’s charms at first but his persuit of her wore down any lingering doubts since only some-one who was in love with you would spend that amount of timew and money courting you against all the odds.

by the time Jane came onto the scene, Henry had a system in place for persuing his latest flame…attention, small gifts, money etc… Jane either had the nouce or the coaching to play his game successfully. She didn’t have the presence to withdraw from court and hope to be followed. Her constant presence must have grated on Anne’s nerves. Katherine had had some relief everytime Anne had left for several weeks until the time Henry left Katherine without any reason..

Anne should have been elated at the death of her former mistress but the presence of a new favourite whom she couldn’t rid herself of and wouldn’t leave must have frayed those last nerves and then tragedy….the miscarriage of a son. That loss and Henry’s withdrawl along with the realisation that in some people’s minds Henry was to all intents a widower must have laid Anne low in her essential spark.

I think Jane was just hoping to be Henry’s mistress before Katherine’s death but all the small pebbles building up swept Jane headlong down a path which eventually lead to Anne’s death and Jane’s elevation to the throne. Jane was as powerless to stop that momentum as was Anne. Henry didn’t want to stop the slide and Cromwell had his own reasons for making sure all the small irritants were swept out of Henry’s way.

MrsFiennes said

There is an interesting article on the site’s FB page about whether Arthur’s and Katherine’s marriage was really consummated.The article is by Leanda De Lisle and I found I tended to agree with a lot of the reasons she suggested that it was not consummated.Such as that Arthur was raised with a lot of personnel chastity,he was inexperienced,his illnesses.Also she states that in the total time they were married they only spent about seven days in the same bed.

Aren’t all men and woman inexperienced when it comes to sex for the first time? Both Arthur and Kathy would have known their duty and would have muddled through somehow, and in time would have learnt what things turned them on or off.
Queen Victoria was said to have got highly excited sexually if Albert removed her stockings.

While I am still recovering from Anyanka calling Henry Justin Beiber…

MrsF I don’t think it would be unusual for a 15 year-old male to be a virgin in those times, they had all sorts of fears regarding sex. Both Arthur’s parents and his grandmother were very pious, sure. I think Margaet Beaufort’s own experience may have influenced the decision to delay Margaret’s marriage another year, or the consummation anyway.
I did read one book, which as usual I can’t remember, probably the Mistresses of Henry VIII, that speculated that Henry VIII had an affair with an older woman at court, a friend of MB’s and that MB arranged it. Crazy. I am pretty sure Henry was a virgin when he married Katherine though, he was even more sheltered than Arthur.

Sharon Suzannah Lipscomb has thrown me a bit regarding Anne’s fall, I was rather curious about her theory that everything was actually peachy until the Harry Norris incident, and that it was only that incident that got Henry going, that he convinced himself Anne was actually guilty. I don’t know what I think yet but it’s an interesting thought.

Bo maybe he had a way with stockings

Olga,
The commission of oyer and terminer was set up on April 24th. It was set up to investigate unspecified treason. And it was set up before the incident with Norris. There were no allegations of infidelity as yet against the queen. So, why? It was to be used against Anne if she would not agree to a divorce quietly. Henry was behind the scenes searching for a way to divorce Anne. He didn’t quite know how he was going to do it, but he was going to rid himself of Anne. He was hoping she would go meekly, but just in case….
I think the Norris incident of the next weekend (on the 29th, I think) gave Henry his get-out-of-jail-free card. Everything fell into place for him quite nicely. He no longer had to ask Anne to leave peacefully. Henry used this incident to his benefit. He may have convinced himself that she was guilty. Or he may have thought if he said it loud enough and long enough, it would become the truth.
Believing that Henry believed it to be true, is stretching my imagination a bit too far. I just can’t get there.
Justin Beiber, hmmmm!

MrsFiennes said

Olga said

MrsF I don’t think it would be unusual for a 15 year-old male to be a virgin in those times, they had all sorts of fears regarding sex. Both Arthur’s parents and his grandmother were very pious, sure. I think Margaet Beaufort’s own experience may have influenced the decision to delay Margaret’s marriage another year, or the consummation anyway.
I did read one book, which as usual I can’t remember, probably the Mistresses of Henry VIII, that speculated that Henry VIII had an affair with an older woman at court, a friend of MB’s and that MB arranged it. Crazy. I am pretty sure Henry was a virgin when he married Katherine though, he was even more sheltered than Arthur.
/blockquote>

No, I don’t suppose it was unusual but Ms.De Lisle was only saying that most likely Arthur was a virgin on marriage due to his upbringing.

I have read that book and I found no suggestion of MB arranging anything like that.So, perhaps it was another book.I think King Henry was pretty much locked away from everything until he became king.On becoming king I think he let loose.According to a french ambassador in 1509 he cared for nothing other than girls and hunting.He also hung out regularly with men that were reported to be very hedonistic and loved to amuse the king.Of course that doesn’t prove he actually did the deed but it seems likely he would have at this time.He did however particularly like older women.

Henry had a very easy lifestyle up until Arthur’s death he was able to do pretty much anything he liked. He was the King of the nursery, that’s for sure, and learnt from a very early age that he had a way with woman (loosely worded). Although on top of that he was extremely devout, and attended Mass 5 times a day and read many religious books. After all H7 plan for him was a life in the church. The only thing H7 refused Henry Junior to do was jousting, but he did comprmise by allowing him to do the more gentler form of jousting called riding at/for the ring.
After Arthur’s death H7 locked junior away in a set of rooms directly behind his own, Junior was allowed to go out and exercise, but no-where near to what he had been used to when Arthur had been alive. Needless to say H7 paranoia about Junior rubbed off on Junior, and he too became extremely paranoid when Eddy was born. Poor Eddy couldn’t even fart without H8 thinking he was ill, and sending for every doctor in the land to find out what had made Eddy fart. Older woman? that does seem strange? Bessie Blount must have looked older than her years then as she was only about 13/14 when he bedded her, and K.H was just a teenager when he married her.

Sharon what is it about Justin Bieber? Personally I can’t see what woman see in him. To me it looks like he needs a good wash, his hair needs a good brushing, he needs to put on clothes that fit him, and he seriously need an attitude adjustment. I suggest a bloody good spanking might make him learn some respect and manners, for his elders and betters.
Kiefer Sutherland (as he was in he lost boys)MMMMmm. Now that is one real stud muffin.

Oh Geez Boleyn! My hmmm was meant as a contemplative sigh! I have no clue as to what people see in Beiber. I have always liked my male heroes to be men. Sorry for the mix up there.
Mrs. Fiennes, Phillipa Jones’ book, The Other Tudors, claims that MB may have set up an older woman to be Henry’s first bedmate. The woman was Elizabeth Denton. She served in Prince Henry’s nursery starting in 1496-97. Later she became governess to his sister, Princess Mary and she may have accompanied Princess Margaret to Scotland. She is said to have served as lady in waiting to Queen Elizabeth. In 1515, as a widow, she was given an annuity for life. She is thought to have served as Lady Mistress of the nursery to Henry VIII’s first son who died in 1511, and later to his daughter, Mary in 1516. (Margaret Bryan didn’t join Mary’s household until 1517)
Jones thinks that MB may have chosen Elizabeth to be his first sexual partner. She was married and older. No complications. She was also granted a home in London which had belonged to MB before she died, called Coldharbor, along with the annuity. Hence, Jones’ conclusion that she could have been his first sexual partner. Jones makes it sound as though Elizabeth was granted these gifts as soon as Henry became king, but other sources say they were given in 1515. A much later date.
Personally I think Jones is all wrong on this one and Elizabeth was given the annuity and the home for her devoted years of service to the crown.

Sharon said

Oh Geez Boleyn! My hmmm was meant as a contemplative sigh! I have no clue as to what people see in Beiber.

LOL Justin Bieber has just be charged with vandalism, by the Brazillian police for spraying graffeti on a wall.
The sad thing is that teens worship this plank as a God almost. I can only hope that they will have enough sence now to realise that he is just a hooligan, who has about as much charisma and talant of a dried dog turd. Of the few songs I’ve heard of his his voice sounds like a screaming elephant whose scotum, is being forced through a mangle.

Sharon said

Just a thought here. Was Henry destined for the church? I’m not so sure. I recently read that only one ambassador claimed that, and everyone since then has repeated it as fact. I can’t see Henry VII doing that. If he had 3 or 4 boys, maybe, but only two? When Arthur died and there was only Henry, Elizabeth and Henry decided they would have another child, and they were hoping for a boy. Unfortunately, Elizabeth and the babe, Katherine, died. It seems to me, that devoting Henry to the priesthood would not have been Henry VII’s choice. Even if he wasn’t worried about his heir dying, I think he would have wanted his second son to marry and keep the Tudor name going.

I know nothing about the current music scene. Someone asked me just recently what lullaby I sang to my son when he was a baby. Lullaby? Well…I used to sing, I Love Rock and Roll, by Joan Jett, to him. Does that count?
Justin Beiber and his music gives me the creeps.
Anyanka, that mayor has been on our news for quite a while. We thought for sure he was going to step down at that news conference of his. We are all just grateful he isn’t here.

Joan Jett? That takes me back. I remember listening to that at break times at school, on the radio and singing along with it, with my freinds. To be honest the song gets up my bugle now, and I never want to hear it again. I have a freind who could only get her kid to settle down and sleep at night when he was a baby by playing Bat out of Hell by Meatloaf. She’s put that on and within minutes he’d gone from screaming the place down to being fast asleep.
I agree Sharon. I think Junior and the preisthood plan was M.B idea, and maybe she might have got her way if Lizzy’s kid had been a boy and lived. What I don’t get with H7 is why didn’t he marry again and try for a few spares, after Lizzy died? There was talk of him marrying K.O.A himself, but I don’t think her parents could stomach that plan which is understandable. However there were a few young princesses for him to marry, and he was a widower for 7 years, in that time he could have produced a couple of boy spares, in case anything happened.