i think it unlikely that Henry, Duke of York was meant for the church – Henry VII knew that his ‘claim’ to the throne came though being the only child of an only child in an age where a full half of all children died before reaching adulthood, he himself had had to fight a pitched battle to become king, and he’d survived numerous assassination plots just to get to that battle. he’s also got the lesson of the ‘proper’ Lancastrians to learn from – Henry VI was an only child, and with the death of his son, Edward of Westminster, the Lancastrian line is ended. dead. extinguished. finito – and thats within his own and his wifes lifetime. this is not, imv, a man who is going to think ‘well, i’ve got one son, so thats the dynasty taken care of..’.

he may have said it, because Henry VII’s throne was never really secure (certainly before 1499) and he needed friends to secure and legitimise his grip on the throne, and the Church could be a very good friend in that regard, but i just don’t beleive he would have risked all on having just one son schooled in the art of war.

Bob the Builder said

i think it unlikely that Henry, Duke of York was meant for the church – Henry VII knew that his ‘claim’ to the throne came though being the only child of an only child in an age where a full half of all children died before reaching adulthood, he himself had had to fight a pitched battle to become king, and he’d survived numerous assassination plots just to get to that battle. he’s also got the lesson of the ‘proper’ Lancastrians to learn from – Henry VI was an only child, and with the death of his son, Edward of Westminster, the Lancastrian line is ended. dead. extinguished. finito – and thats within his own and his wifes lifetime. this is not, imv, a man who is going to think ‘well, i’ve got one son, so thats the dynasty taken care of..’.

he may have said it, because Henry VII’s throne was never really secure (certainly before 1499) and he needed friends to secure and legitimise his grip on the throne, and the Church could be a very good friend in that regard, but i just don’t beleive he would have risked all on having just one son schooled in the art of war.

Even Henry VI was an only son and RIchard III saw his legitimate son pre-decease him. Children’s lives were very vunerable to diseases that we consider curable these days.

H7 may have thought of Henry as church bound once Arthur had a few rugrats of his own in the royal nursery but until then Henry was valuble as the Spare at court and not locked into religious vows.

Boleyn said

Agreed Anyanka, but why didn’t H7 remarry and provide a few more. Ok so he wasn’t in the best of health as such but he still could have done the deed.

i would assume it would be a confluence of reasons – firstly that he was genuinely (and i say this as a dyed-in-the-wool Yorkist) devastated by the death of Elizabeth of York, secondly that his family history suggests that remarriages and ‘second families’ can cause enormous problems later on – the Beauforts for Henry VI, the split in the House of Neville that in some ways fired the WotR, and the remarriage of Katherine of Valois after the death of Henry V, and thirdly the impact of Kingship on his health: he took the crown aged 28, and he died aged 52 (my maths is crap..) but he looks awful in his portraits, really haggard and broken by the stress and pressure of the role – and probably the death of Elizabeth and several of his children. he may have seen the wisdom of a second marriage, but just been unable to face the reality of it.

i’m tempted to suggest people look at photo’s of Tony Blair in 1997 and 2007 – the man looks like a before and after the gulag photo – if he’d been PM for as long as Henry VII was King, he’d have looked like Yoda. its a stressful job, and it takes a fearsome toll on those who do it.

Thank you Bob. I had heard that H7 did genuinely mourn Elizabeth as he did love her, there is certainly no mention as far as I can tell of him having a mistress during his marriage to her. He is alledged to have had one child with a Flemish lady, the child was called Katherine I believe and was known as the mother of all Wales or something like that. Is there any mention of H7 having a mistress after Elizabeth died?

Thank you Jasmine. I knew that Juana was mentioned as a perspective bride for H7, but I thought it was she herself who refused the match, as she and Kathy didn’t really get on with each other, and she was afraid that if she married H7 that her father would somehow find a way of taking the throne of Castille from her.

Boleyn said

Thank you Jasmine. I knew that Juana was mentioned as a perspective bride for H7, but I thought it was she herself who refused the match, as she and Kathy didn’t really get on with each other, and she was afraid that if she married H7 that her father would somehow find a way of taking the throne of Castille from her.

Juana wasn’t widowed until 1506 while pregnant with her last daughter Catherine who was born in 1507. Henry would have had only a small period of time between 1506 and his death in 1509 to negioate a marriage treaty with Juana.

Since Ferdinand had taken over the regency of Castile in mid 1507 against Juana’s wishes, there was no way he would allow his daughter to marry yet another forgein ruler who may well want to interfere in the management of Castile. And eventually Aragon.

eta…according to Wikipedia, HenryVII had a dispensation issued for him to marry KoA( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H…..of_England)

In 1503, Queen Elizabeth died in childbirth, so King Henry had the dispensation also permit him to marry Catherine himself. After obtaining the dispensation, Henry had second thoughts about the marriage of his son and Catherine. Catherine’s mother Isabella I of Castile had died and Catherine’s sister Joanna had succeeded her; Catherine was therefore daughter of only one reigning monarch and so less desirable as a spouse for Henry VII’s heir-apparent. The marriage did not take place during his lifetime.

Henry made half-hearted plans to remarry and beget more heirs, but these never came to anything. In 1505 he was sufficiently interested in a potential marriage to Joan, the recently widowed Queen of Naples, that he sent ambassadors to Naples to report on the 27-year old’s physical suitability.[39] Despite his efforts at remarriage, there is little doubt that Henry felt genuine grief for his wife; on her death he “privily departed to a solitary place, and would that no man should resort unto him.”[40]

..and in 1505 made some efforts towards a marriage with Joanna of Naples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Naples_%281478-1518%29)

Anyanka said

Boleyn said

Thank you Jasmine. I knew that Juana was mentioned as a perspective bride for H7, but I thought it was she herself who refused the match, as she and Kathy didn’t really get on with each other, and she was afraid that if she married H7 that her father would somehow find a way of taking the throne of Castille from her.

Juana wasn’t widowed until 1506 while pregnant with her last daughter Catherine who was born in 1507. Henry would have had only a small period of time between 1506 and his death in 1509 to negioate a marriage treaty with Juana.

Since Ferdinand had taken over the regency of Castile in mid 1507 against Juana’s wishes, there was no way he would allow his daughter to marry yet another forgein ruler who may well want to interfere in the management of Castile. And eventually Aragon.

eta…according to Wikipedia, HenryVII had a dispensation issued for him to marry KoA( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H…..of_England)

In 1503, Queen Elizabeth died in childbirth, so King Henry had the dispensation also permit him to marry Catherine himself. After obtaining the dispensation, Henry had second thoughts about the marriage of his son and Catherine. Catherine’s mother Isabella I of Castile had died and Catherine’s sister Joanna had succeeded her; Catherine was therefore daughter of only one reigning monarch and so less desirable as a spouse for Henry VII’s heir-apparent. The marriage did not take place during his lifetime.

Henry made half-hearted plans to remarry and beget more heirs, but these never came to anything. In 1505 he was sufficiently interested in a potential marriage to Joan, the recently widowed Queen of Naples, that he sent ambassadors to Naples to report on the 27-year old’s physical suitability.[39] Despite his efforts at remarriage, there is little doubt that Henry felt genuine grief for his wife; on her death he “privily departed to a solitary place, and would that no man should resort unto him.”[40]

..and in 1505 made some efforts towards a marriage with Joanna of Naples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Naples_%281478-1518%29)

Thank you Anyanka.
I didn’t know about the Queen of Naples bit, (learn some thing new everyday it’s all good though) H7 I have read waas genuinely greif stricken at his beloved Elizabeth’s death, and was for a while shut away from everyone and everything. I’m not too sure but I think his councillors believed that at one point he was contemplating suicide. If you think about Elizabeth’s death and his reaction to it. I.e locking himself away and not speaking to anyone etc, is very similar to that of Queen Victoria when Albert died.
H7 attempts to remarry were perhaps a way of keeping his councillors quiet as I’ve no doubt they would be the ones urging him to think of the succession etc.. He was clever enough to know the problems that a second family would cause if he remarried (as Bob pointed out) although it perhaps played on his conscious a little that the whole Tudor dynasty rested on the shoulders of H junior.

Thank you Jasmine.
Thinking about it, I’m sure that H7 did love Elizabeth of York, but not in the sence of the typical knight/damsel in distress way. He knew from the start that the only way he could put the full stop on Bosworth was to marry Elizabeth. After all H7 claim was a very watered down claim from the bastard line of John of Gaunt. Yes H6 legitimized his half brothers by Owen Tudor, but I believe there was a catch to it in the sence that yes they were legally begotten, but they and their heirs would have no claim to the throne blah blah.. Margaret Beaufort claim to the throne, was much the same, as the Tudor line of things. John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford children were excepted as legally begotten, but again had no claim to the throne. So poor old Henry Tulip was a technically a bastard on both sides of the blanket. So he needed Elizabeth more than she actually needed him. Their marriage was I believe purely political although it did turn out rather well in the end, and they had genuine affection for each other.
From what I can gather Henry Tulip’s relationship with his mother was perhaps one of deep respect, but I don’t think he loved her as a child does.
I believe that at times she could be quite domineering, and demanding, and perhaps once or twice they rubbed each other up the wrong way. I not to sure but I also believe that at times she got on H Junior’s tits too, with her domineering ways. I think she was also the one who decided that H Junior needed a regent to rule for him, after Henry Tulip’s death although Junior was more than capable and of an age where he didn’t need a regent. I think 14 or 15 was considered the right sort of age for a king to rule without a regent. Richard 2nd was about 13 or 14 when he took on Wat Tyler’s mob.

Judging from her portraits , Juana was a beautiful woman by standards of the time plus she was reasonably young being less than 30 when Philip died and she was highly fertile having 6 live births in a 10 year period.

Plus given her descent from John of Gaunt through his second marriage to Constance of Castile gave her a distant claim to the English throne as a Lancastrian claimant…She was his great-great-granddaughter.

Olga, Slight correction H7 died in April 1509, his mum died 2 months later. I more than think it’s entirely possible the M.B may have died of a broken heart if that makes sence. It was clear her whole world revolved around H7 and when he died there simply didn’t seem to be any point of hanging about anymore.
H7 founded the new dynasty that’s for sure, but he belonged to the time of the age of knights and damsels in distress sort of thing.. In sort old fashioned times.. When H7 was on the throne it was mearly a transistion period, a kind of out with the old and in with the new sort of thing. H7 put us on the road to modern day living, but it was H. Junior that made sure we weren’t able to go back.

I agree Olga. H7 really doesn’t deserve the title of a miserly old King etc.. If anything he should be extolled. Before Bosworth I feel that the country was perhaps boardering on financial bankcrupcy, the reason being that the WOTR were costly, can’t go to war and hope to feed your massive armies on a bag of peanuts and a hogshead of beer everyday can you? So with Bosworth once the big showdown was all over, H7 literely had to scrape the bottom of the piggy bank, and invest the few groats that he found and hope that the his investment would make money. Perhaps his methods of making money were a little near the knuckle at times in the sence that I have heard that one of his ways of getting taxes from the nobles, was (to say for the sake of arguement) to ask them to cough up £10,, those who pleaded poverty, were obviously hiding something, so could afford to cough up more than just £10. The nobles, who opened their wallets and “simply said he you go your majesty, Keep the change” could again pay more than just £10, either way the nobles coughed up. I suppose in a way H7 brough in a system of taxes which was fair to everyone and benefitted the country as a whole, rather than to just funding his own lifestyle. You must admit that the country certainly prospered, after Bosworth, and of course the crowning moment I think in H7 reign was securing K.O.A for Arthur. A new King who was brought up more or less in exile, got extremely lucky at Bosworth and became the maker of a whole new dynasty and way of life, you have to admire H7 for that fact alone.
However in doing so he paid a heavy toll as he got old before his time, if that makes sence. The know portrait we have of H7 shows him as an shuffling old man, I bet in his youth he was very handsome, and certainly as athletic as H junior was. H7 was just doing his job, and saved the country from complete and all out anarcy. The people were united etc at peace..
I wonder if part of his reasoning for not remarrying after EOY died was because he felt if he did, he would be betraying her and sullying the memories they had together? It’s not uncommon for a man to feel that way.

Owen must have been a bit of a charather, for Catherine of Valois to fall for him, after all he wasn’t titled or anything. I think he was the master of her wardrobe or something like that (he rummaged through her knickers drawer LOL) I think he had a illegitmate daughter too from one of Catherine’s maids.. She (daughter) was called Catherine too, from what little I’ve read about Owen , this daughter either died in infancy or like most (but not all) bastard children was brought up in a convent and became a nun. There may be an element of truth in that. as when Owen was executed his head I believe wasn’t put on a pike as you would expect it was placed on the town hall steps and shortly afterwards a woman appeared (a mad woman some say) who sat on the steps next to his head, and not only washed the blood from his face but combed his hair and sat with it in her lap screaming at anyone who tried to take his head from her. Was it his daughter? in some accounts I’vee read it’s even been suggested it was Catherine of Valois herself, the reason being, because that alledgely the last words spoken by Owen were “Just think this head once used to lay in the lap of a Queen.” So you can kind of understand where the idea for this woman being Catherine of Valois came from. Impossible for that one, we know that, but not impossible for the bastard daughter, as she would have been around ther household until about the age of 7 (I think that was the age that it was minimum age religious houses could take in new novices) so if true she would have seen Owen with his head in the Queen’s lap. I can’t say if it’s true or not, but then anything is possible, look at the myth of King Richard he was supposed to have been a twisted hunchbacked child killer, the truth is very different, yes he had a spinal deformaty, but no where near as bad as we were led to believe, and he certainly didn’t kill the Prince’s, he wouldn’t have had anything to gain by their deaths. These little storiies are called urban myths, sound all hearts,flowers and romantic etc, but very few are actually true and if they are, the true story is often very different to what we have heard.

I didn’t know about M.B and Cecily Neville relationship, so thank you for that Olga. I would have thought that Cecily Neville would have hated M.B with a vengence, basically because M.B’s son killed (not directly I don’t think H7 killed Richard that was one of H7’s men) the last of Cecily’s sons.
M.D I know was extremely pious, she was forever on about her saints knees, and yes she did do a lot for the poor and needy. I don’t think she liked court that much, possibly because of the things that went on there. Court was really a hotbed of intrique and plotting, and she had probably seen enough of that to last a lifetime with E4 and EW court. I believe she did supervise or at least manage some of the household business, personally I don’t see that as a problem. If EOY was in confinement or was on progress with H7 someone trustworthy would have to run the household and see to it the staff were doing their jobs properly and the kids were being cared for as fitting. Makes perfect sence to me and she herself had, had years of experience o the best and most economical way of doing things. H7 trusted his mother that was clear, and I know that he often went to her for advice on what to do or how to deal with a sticky problem. Why not she was experienced in the ways of court and knew what made most of the lords tick etc..
As for EW I think she was tired of court, and all the hassle of being in court. She simply wanted to live the quiet life. I believe she was present when the children were christened, but apart from that I think she chose to avoid the court mostly..