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11:16 pm
June 7, 2011
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TheAwesome-B-Necklace said:
My least favorite wife would definitely have to be Jane Seymour – she seems to be a popular one here, although that's not why she's my least favorite.
She was either a meek doormat or an ambitious women hiding under the mask of a domicile, meek, innocent, dim-witted twat! There is nothing about her that's intriguing to me besides two questions: “Was she really a sweet quiet mouse?” and “And, why would Henry choose a 'Plain Jane' over unconventionally beautiful, passionate, exciting, Anne Boleyn, with whom he could try again to get a son with?” And, although I somewhat understand her being referred to as a phoenix, I think she should be called a rat instead! I mean, honestly, doesn't anyone else get annoyed that Anne Boleyn is often portrayed as a home wrecker, when Jane Seymour did the exact same thing? And Jane did it worse then Anne! While Anne split up Katherine of Aragon and Henry VIII, KoA, although I admire her greatly for her strength and will power, should've backed down, and at least Mary would've had an easier life. And, also, if it wasn't Anne B, it would've been someone else – but I'm glad it was her, she's such a fascinating person! And, Katherine of Aragon was loved by the people after she died! Anne was disliked, and because of Henry's interest in Jane (and a male heir!) Anne was executed a traitor, and adulteress, a witch, etc. and little Elizabeth was branded illegitimate! It's honestly fascinating how Jane was a home wrecker too, but is never credited as one! I may be a little biased, but she {Jane} doesn't have that charisma behind her character like Katherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard, and Katherine Parr do, at least to me. And, as I am a rambler, she literally stepped over Anne Boleyn's dead body to marry Henry and become Queen Consort. And getting engaged and married the guy only 11 days after Anne was beheaded is just cruel. I'm sure that if she at least had the decorum to tell Henry to wait longer, “For the sake of the people's thought's..you wouldn't want to impugn my honor and make it hard for us to marry and have a legitimate son
, *bats eyelashes* would you?” I could just lose a little bit of my dislike for her. And it might sound like I hate her, but since I haven't met her, I can't really say that. Also, she's only my least favorite for the Jane vs. Anne thing and I just don't like her compared to the other 5 wives. It's kind of hard to hate H8's wives because they all have “something” about them that it interesting.
But then again, this is only my humble opinion, and I'm sorry if I'm getting a little heated. I'm new here and I didn't mean for any of my statements to be hurtful to other members.
I totally agree with you! I hate how Jane's supporters call Anne a wh*re and Jane a saint! Jane had an affair with a married man, while his wife was pregnant, which in my opinion is far worse than having an affair with a man who considered his marriage null and void in the first place!
"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.
1:02 am
July 2, 2011
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My least favorite wife is definitely Jane! I have tried recently not to judge her too harshly, but just the thought of her preparing for her marriage whilst Anne was preparing to die is pretty sickening to me. I wish we had a clearer idea of the kind of woman Jane really was. The thing that most annoys me is that in fiction and on tv she's nearly always portrayed the same way, and we're handed down the same portrayal of her; I've yet to see a well-rounded depiction of her. I guess we'll never know what she was really like because we don't have a time machine, but I know one thing – if I'd been a lady in waiting at Anne's court I'd have pulled Jane aside and have words with her on Anne's behalf.
I've just fetched my copy of Elizabeth Norton's book “Anne Boleyn in her own words and the words of those who knew her” and found a letter by Chapuys dated 1 April 1536. Here's an interesting extract concerning Jane…
“But I hear that the young lady has been well tutored and warned by those among this King's courtiers who hate the concubine, telling her not in any wise to give in to the King's fancy unless he make her his Queen, upon which the damsel is quite resolved. She has likewise been advised to tell the King frankly, and without reserve, how much his subjects abominate the marriage contracted with the concubine, and that not one considers it legitimate, and that this declaration ought to be made in the presence of the titled nobility of this kingdom, who are to attest the truth of her statements should the King request them on their oath and fealty to do so.”
Hmm! I know this is Chapuys we're talking about, but I don't think he'd feel the need to lie about Jane?
10:17 am
November 18, 2010
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Elliemarianna said:
TheAwesome-B-Necklace said:
I mean, honestly, doesn't anyone else get annoyed that Anne Boleyn is often portrayed as a home wrecker, when Jane Seymour did the exact same thing? And Jane did it worse then Anne! While Anne split up Katherine of Aragon and Henry VIII, KoA, although I admire her greatly for her strength and will power, should've backed down, and at least Mary would've had an easier life. And, also, if it wasn't Anne B, it would've been someone else – but I'm glad it was her, she's such a fascinating person! And, Katherine of Aragon was loved by the people after she died! Anne was disliked, and because of Henry's interest in Jane (and a male heir!) Anne was executed a traitor, and adulteress, a witch, etc. and little Elizabeth was branded illegitimate! It's honestly fascinating how Jane was a home wrecker too, but is never credited as one! …. And, as I am a rambler, she literally stepped over Anne Boleyn's dead body to marry Henry and become Queen Consort. And getting engaged and married the guy only 11 days after Anne was beheaded is just cruel.
Snipped for brevity.
I totally agree with you! I hate how Jane's supporters call Anne a wh*re and Jane a saint! Jane had an affair with a married man, while his wife was pregnant, which in my opinion is far worse than having an affair with a man who considered his marriage null and void in the first place!
It's worse than just betraying Anne. Jane also betrayed KoA since she and H8 were having an affair prior to Katherine's death if she was such a supporter of Katherine's marriage being valid.
It's always bunnies.
10:49 am
December 12, 2010
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Anyanka said:
It's worse than just betraying Anne. Jane also betrayed KoA since she and H8 were having an affair prior to Katherine's death if she was such a supporter of Katherine's marriage being valid.
That's a very good point Anyanka. I'd never thought of that. And though I often wonder if Jane was secretly terrified of what happened to Anne, it doesn't change the fact that she engaged in the affair before Anne's actual downfall. I am also sick of the way she's portrayed in fiction as a sweet and innocent woman. I recall her entry in The Tudors. All that was missing was a halo. She may have been tutored by the Catholic faction but she must have been a willing participant, and even though she can't have known beforehand what would happen to Anne, she was still willing to engage in an affair. Why should Anne get all the flak and Jane nothing?
12:07 pm
July 17, 2011
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Do you know what bugs me about Jane Seymour the most? Its the fact that her ploy to get Henry was completely unoriginal in that she just copied the exact same ploy Anne had used. She didn't even have the wits to come up with her own masterplan. Lol.
'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable' Thomas More
9:03 pm
August 6, 2011
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Anyanka said:
Elliemarianna said:
TheAwesome-B-Necklace said:
I mean, honestly, doesn't anyone else get annoyed that Anne Boleyn is often portrayed as a home wrecker, when Jane Seymour did the exact same thing? And Jane did it worse then Anne! While Anne split up Katherine of Aragon and Henry VIII, KoA, although I admire her greatly for her strength and will power, should've backed down, and at least Mary would've had an easier life. And, also, if it wasn't Anne B, it would've been someone else – but I'm glad it was her, she's such a fascinating person! And, Katherine of Aragon was loved by the people after she died! Anne was disliked, and because of Henry's interest in Jane (and a male heir!) Anne was executed a traitor, and adulteress, a witch, etc. and little Elizabeth was branded illegitimate! It's honestly fascinating how Jane was a home wrecker too, but is never credited as one! …. And, as I am a rambler, she literally stepped over Anne Boleyn's dead body to marry Henry and become Queen Consort. And getting engaged and married the guy only 11 days after Anne was beheaded is just cruel.
Snipped for brevity.
I totally agree with you! I hate how Jane's supporters call Anne a wh*re and Jane a saint! Jane had an affair with a married man, while his wife was pregnant, which in my opinion is far worse than having an affair with a man who considered his marriage null and void in the first place!
It's worse than just betraying Anne. Jane also betrayed KoA since she and H8 were having an affair prior to Katherine's death if she was such a supporter of Katherine's marriage being valid.
How can so many people call her a saint??? It's absolutely ridiculous. Back in that crazy time period, Jane was “saving” England – I personally think she added more to the religious confusion – by getting rid of “The Concubine!” But, if she was such a big supporter of Catholicism and KoA, at least wait until that poor woman is cold in her grave and show that you love the then Dowager Princess with actions rather then words! (Actions speak louder than words!) Jane Seymour is such a big phony!!!!…..At least to me she is; And she could've waited over a month for after Anne's death. And getting engaged to the man who signed his former wife's death warrant on the day or day after (I forgot which – apologies!) said wife was beheading as a traitor, witch, adulteress, and many other rude names, on FALSE charges is just so cruel. Katherine of Aragon would've been very disappointed in Jane Seymour for acting like that! At least Katherine was smart enough to find ways to beat Henry without really making a fool out of him!
I came up with an analogy about Anne and Jane:
“Falcons eat mice.” (The Falcon was Anne's symbol and the typical description of Jane is a “quiet little mouse.”)
Jane just vexes me to no end!
I'm so glad I'm not the only one!
"To be or not to be, that is the question."//////// "The Most Happy."
~ William Shakespeare, Hamlet.///// ~ Anne Boleyn's motto.
5:00 am
May 19, 2011
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You're not the only one! She drives me nuts too! I like your “falcons eat mice”
"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"
10:16 am
February 24, 2010
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Anyanka said:
It's worse than just betraying Anne. Jane also betrayed KoA since she and H8 were having an affair prior to Katherine's death if she was such a supporter of Katherine's marriage being valid.
Anyanka, I never looked at it that way. The whole crew of the Catholic faction were a bunch of hypocrites. KOA was dying, and that made it okay for them to set up a new prize. I know she probably gave no thought to Anne's downfall, but I wonder what Jane was thinking in those months about Katherine, and did she give a thought to her own soul? If Jane loved Katherine, her affair with Henry had to give her pause. At least once.
An aside about KOA. If she had gone off to the nunnery, her marriage would have been dissolved, right? What would that have meant for Mary. I assume the disolution would be an annulment? If an annulment means they were never married, wouldn't Mary still be considered illegitimate? Either way, wouldn't Mary lose?
7:14 pm
November 18, 2010
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To be honest, that only struck me a couple of weeks ago when I was writing out a time line using Norton's Jane Seynour. It was a Walter The Fish moment.
re KoA's marriage..if it was annuled due to KoA being Arthur's widow* and the marriage to H8 was made in good faith, IIRC, Mary would have remained legitimate since they both entered into the marriage without realising an impediment. The children of annuled marriages are considered legitimate
Marriages are declared null ab initio, meaning that the marriage
has been essentially invalid from the beginning. This stipulation can
cause concern that offspring from the marriage will be considered as
illegitimate in the event of an annulment. Canon 1137 of the Code of Canon Law
specifically affirms the legitimacy of children born in both recognized
and putative marriages (those later declared null). Critics point to
this as additional evidence that a Catholic annulment is similar to
divorce — although civil laws that recognized both annulments and
divorce regard the offspring of a putative marriage as legitimate.
* this would infer consumation took place.
It's always bunnies.
12:32 am
July 17, 2011
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Somewhere in the depths of my brain, I recall reading at some point that the reason Henry et al were trying to convince KOA to go to a nunnery was because a wife deciding she wanted to take the veil was one of the few reasons a marriage could be annulled with no questions asked.
'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable' Thomas More
2:39 am
August 12, 2009
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Catalina said:
Somewhere in the depths of my brain, I recall reading at some point that the reason Henry et al were trying to convince KOA to go to a nunnery was because a wife deciding she wanted to take the veil was one of the few reasons a marriage could be annulled with no questions asked.
I'm sure she realized that and dug her heels in even further every time they “discussed” it with her. How dumb did they think she was? She certainly wasn't going to just hand them the ammunition they needed. And I don't blame her.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
2:53 am
July 17, 2011
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Me neither. I have so much respect and admiration for her. I know some people think she was stubborn and foolish for not backing down, but I think she was so courageous and strong. Plus, she was in the right, so I would never say that she should have given in.
'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable' Thomas More
6:15 pm
August 12, 2009
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Henry had known her since when, 1501? Married to her since 1509, he had to know she wasn't a weak woman and wouldn't back down when she thought she was right. Look how many years she continued to cling to her destiny (being Queen of England) after Henry VII ordered young Henry VIII to renounce their betrothal. I think Henry (VIII) had gotten a little soft in the head if he'd talked himself into believing that he could order KOA into a nunnery and that she would meekly capitulate. Did he forget whose child she was? Dumb, Henry. Very dumb.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
12:41 am
July 17, 2011
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I also often wonder why Henry could not see when people were trying to manipulate him – Jane Seymour for example. Could he not see that her and her family were trying to snare him for their own advancement. I can't understand how he never realised Jane was 'playing' him, or saw through the charade of the whole 'I must keep my virtue' thing, since he had been there before. Did he not realise what she was doing?
'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable' Thomas More
4:16 pm
January 10, 2011
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Allright, i have finished reading my bio on Isabella of Castile, and my opinion on Catherine is with much more adoration then it allready was.
I am a Anne lover to, otherwise i would not be here. But let's face the fact people, if your husband dissides that he wants another woman after you have dedicated who know how many years to a marriage, you would call the other woman also a wh*re and would not go silently to a nunnery, if my husband would left me for another, i would certainly kick him to the curb, but not without a fight. I would strip him down for erverything he had and certainly would not remove myself quietly, and i am not raised at a court, told from my birth down that i would be queen of England by a mother who was a great queen and who no one would dare to threaten. Sure i would not want a man who would not want me. To Katherine it was different. The woman should be admired for her strugle and i myself believe that even if she had gone silently to let Anne and Henry marry each other, Mary would still be declared a bastard! But that is my opinion. And Katherine was from the moment she arived in England very populair among the common people.
I am going blablabla. My point is Katherine of Aragon deserves great respect, from the moment she was born she got a education by her mother that was special in those days, girls did not get educations, girls were normaly for bearing children and giving kings mail heirs and learned to be a good and obedient wife to her future husband.
Isabella proved otherwise, she fought for her right against her halve brother Enrique, she won, she won so many wars and had a rich dynasty, in that glorious court Katherine was raised and educated not only to be a woman and in catholicism, but that she would be a queen. She saw her mother fighting battles, she saw her mother ruling over Castile and see saw her mother dealing with ambasadors, columbus etc. The woman and by that i mean Katherine was a well educated woman, i believe Henry VIII really loved her, but got a litle grazy when she got older and still had not provided him with a son. Anne Boleyn entered te stage. And sorry i do admire Anne for the reason she was a modern woman in a historian time. A woman who spoke her mind. But that does not mean that Katherine was to be going away and give them her blessing, offcourse she would fight, she was a very much in mind and body like her mother. She had learned it was her right to rule from the moment that it was sure that she would become married to Arthur Tudor, even at court in spain Catherina learned at a very young age that she was the queen of England. Really people, read a bio on Isabella if you want to learn more about Katherine of Aragon, when i was finish reading it i got a whole other picture of Katherine but also about Isabella then i had before.
And again, i love Anne, will always love her, but that does not mean that everything she did was right! And so everybody made their mistakes. But i find it sometimes anoying that everyone is yelling that she should retire in a nunnery, like you would do that if that happens to you….
And i do not mean that offensive, cause i am certainly not here to be a anti Anne person. But i am trying to think logical and sometimes to understand someone, you have to know more about their background and fortunately there are great bio's on Katherine mother Isabella. so don't get me wrong… But i had to say this… Just to ease my mind.
5:35 pm
January 10, 2011
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Oh and by bio's on Isabella i do not mean Wikipedia. But i gues you know that.
Greetings!
11:34 pm
July 17, 2011
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I agree with you Kelly. I can't see many women allowing themselves to be packed off to a nunnery because their husband wants to marry another woman. I stated somewhere in another thread that I sure as hell wouldn't have made it easy and gone quietly.
I often think that if she had gone quietly and retired to a nunnery and not put up any fight, we would all be saying that she should have fought for her marriage and her right to be queen, and that she gave in too easily.
'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable' Thomas More
5:25 am
June 7, 2010
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Katherine was damed if she did, damed if she didn't. No matter what her reaction to Henry's annulment of their marriage, people were going to criticize her decisions and behaviours. Hindsight is a great thing, but Katherine was in the moment, and reacting how she believed was the most constructive and best suited her situation. Her marriage was falling apart, and there was nothing she could do to stop it. She did not deserve to be treated so callously. Henry and Anne may have wanted KOA to sit back and take it, but they were barking up the wrong tree. Henry forgot whose daughter KOA was, and that KOA was a formidable woman.
People criticizied her for fighting for her marriage and rights, I can only imagine how she would be lambasted for taking Henry's abuse without a fight. She would be described as weak, ineffectual, and stupid. People would be demanding to know why she didn't fight for her marrige.
Did her behaviour have a negative effect on Mary? Yes, but Mary was her mother's daughter, and I doubt she would have defered to her father right away. Henry is to blame for his treatment of Mary. Not KOA. Did her behaviour change the outcome of the annullment? No, but she made sure people heard her side of the story, and was not going to be silenced by bullies.
If that were me, I would not go quietly. I would fight tooth and nail for what was mine. I would be shut away in a nunnery while my husband paraded around his newest girlfriend, and ignore the rights of my child.
Yes, I love Anne as much as the next person, but I cannot dislike KOA in spite of that. KOA is a woman who deserves people's respect. She was raised to be Queen of England. Her life was falling apart. What person would go quietly? Her destiny was being ripped apart and she defended her position. I cannot fault her for that.
"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn
6:59 pm
May 16, 2011
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I don't think anyone blames KOA for defending herself…i mean for me personally, i just think that maybe if she had backed down her daughters life might of been easier.
• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.
7:31 pm
January 10, 2011
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Mademoiselle Mya said:
i just think that maybe if she had backed down her daughters life might of been easier.
I find it hard to believe that, i don't blame KoA for one minute for how Mary's future would turn out, the one i blame for that is Henry VIII. Mary understood very well why her mother was fighting, she was not only fighting for herself but also on behalve of Mary.
Mary would never have accepted Anne as Queen above her mother, let me reffer the question, would u do that? I would certainly not and that is why i can not believe those things, but that is because i was curious about first Mary, then Catherine and to know more about KoA, i had to know more about were she was coming from, namely Isabella. The years Mary spend with her mothers, she was raised the same way as KoA was raised by Isabella. She got educated like a queen. The next in line for the throne (accept when there would come a son). The moment Anne arrived and the fight begon, KoA had to strugle for the right for the throne for her daughter (it is almost the same as her mother did with her brother Enrique when he wanted his doubtly daughter as heiress when everybody thought that the child was not his, because the story went that he was gay or impotent). offcourse times were hard on Mary, but if there was one person who loved Mary it was KoA. Mary did know how easy it was to be executed, i mean we all know that Anne herself was not a fan of KoA or Mary. And even Anne (yes i love her to) was no saint.
The way Mary turned out, was partly because of the divorce, but mainly because of Henry's and Anne treatment when she was servant of Elizabeth. Declared a bastard (and i am sure she would have been declared a bastard even if KoA was resigning) and ignored when Elizabeht was visited by her parents, after the downfall of Anne, she was threatened to sign that her father was supreme head of the church, if she did not do that, well you know the story. Also when Edward VI was king he forbid his sister to hang on to her faith and so many more things happened. Those things and the fact that they try to steal her crown when Edward died, were the things that made Mary to what she would become. That and the fact that the common people were against her marriage with Phillips of Spain (can't blame the people for that). When Phillip treated her wit no love, well you can guess what that does to a woman..
Mary did not ask to be burried next to her mother if she did not understand the battle her mother was fighting on her behalve, we all know how Henry was, he changed his mind all the time and you never knew what was hanging above your head, so i really do disagree on your point, but maybe i am wrong. And can someone enlight me with a different theory.. Again i love Anne Boleyn, but just because she was Anne did not mean that KoA had to say, o yeah sure, go ahead, i go to a nunnery and you can steal my husband.. If i were KoA i would kick her butt and gave her a good beating, she would not have a hair on her head anymore, but the lady had a dignity i clearly do not posses. It does not work that way, especially when you are raised and have been told from the age of three by a magnificent and powerfull court that you are the queen of England. She had won the battle against the scotts and had devoted 23 years of marriage and miscariages and stillborns to the man she loved. I think Mary understood her mother perfectly. That is why i love the books of Linda Porter and Anne whitelock, they give a good vieuw of the girl and all the threads that were made against her.
I know i seem a litle hostile, i hope not, i am only speaking in how i see it, again that does not mean that i am right, i am just participating in the debat, and i am a woman who was brought up as a proud woman who would not let people steal her thunder. So i can only imagine that when my parents were the greatest monarchs of that time, with a history and power we only can imagine, how proud and fiesty KoA must have been. So i fully understand and respect her. Again if one woman wants to try to steal my man from me, and my man would go for it, i would kick them both to the curb and put on a fight they would never forget.
So fellow Anne lovers, don't blame for my opinion in this matter. Peace!
