Yes and what about how he showed off a ring Anne had given him to Thomas Wyatt? Only to have Wyatt show off a trinket he took from Anne.

Then Henry sent Wyatt away from court! He was very petty.

I was joking Aud, Sharon got the joke.. LOL

Aud I agree with you here. Anne was radically different to K.O.A and her firey tempestous nature was a big attraction to Henry. After so many years of married life to K.O.A his sex life with her must have become pretty much as if he was an endless factory production line, he needed something to spice up his sexlife for want of a better word.

In my opinion there would have perhaps been no spontinaity in the sexual relationship between K.O.A and Henry. He would have informed her of his intentions to sleep with her that night either by telling her that himself or via a messager, (providing that she wasn’t having her menstrual cycle at that time, and again that would probably be asked when he made his intentions known about wanting to visit her that night) that fact alone knowing that the whole palace and perhaps even the whole of London would know by the morning, that the King was going to sleep with his wife, would perhaps be very offputting to him at times.
There was probably the issue of how K.O.A looked and acted when he went into the bedroom, there would be set of actions that she would know inside out and back to front she would have followed. I.e
Step 1 Have wash/ clean teeth etc.
Step 2 Put frilly nightie on, put a bit of Evening in London perfume behind your ears.
Step 3 Pour a drink for Henry and possibly have a little bit of bread and meat on standby.
Step 4 Climb into bed and try to look sexy.
Step 5 Listen out for Henry when heard dismiss her ladies.
Step 6 Tell Henry “Come In dear”
Step 7 Lie back and look at the cracks in the ceiling.
Step 8 Breathe a sign of relief it all over
Step 9 Wave bye bye to Henry
Step 10 Blow candle out (if there is anything left to blow out) and go to sleep.

There is also a matter of sexual prowess here (especially when it came to Henry’s ego which as we know was a large and perhaps larger than he was towards the end of his life) We all know that back then the whole reasoning for sex was solely for the procreation of children, however although not to sure about this, in order to acheive that it, it was vital or so I believe, that the woman must org*sm to help that process along, so Henry’s sexual abilities would have been judged in the sence of was he viral and skilled enough to be able to produce the very org*sm needed to bring children forth?
I believe he may have also been judged on how long he was actually in her room for. I’m not saying he would be timed or anything, but certainly if he was only in there for half an hour, there would be gossip. For instance we all know of Henry’s unbridled rivalry towards Francois, so the spies in both courts and there were many would be asked to keep and and eye out for how long it took for both Francois and Henry to have sex.
If Francois took longer than Henry in the bedroom or vice versa/Shurla Burla, it would be gossiped about, and that gossip would eventually get back to both of them, with no doubt a few comments thrown in by either king such as in Francois case to Henry “Ha ha I can go for hours and my wife/mistresses are so well satified, afterwards they can’t walk, Your missus just rolls over and goes to sleep. Just goes to prove only French men know how to make love” I not saying this did happen but given the almost insane jealous rivalry between Henry and Francois, you can possibly believe that this was the case.
Henry’s love for Anne was more of a desperate sort of love, he needed to prove that he outdo his rival Francois. If Anne had bore him a son then maybe he might have developed a much deeper and more compassionate love towards Anne one that goes beyond that of just sex and children if that makes sence.. I suppose they only way to describe it is that although I’m married to a dinky dinosaur who at times I could cheerfully strangle (especially given the insane things he does at times.. The magic roundabout comes to mind here, lets just say dinosaur isn’t normal and I’m not even going there with Thunderbirds.) He’s more than just my husband, he’s my best freind, too. I don’t think Henry ever felt that for Anne or any other of his wives, with the possible exception of perhaps K.P, although she wasn’t his best freind mearly an extremely close freind.
K.O.A was in my opinion his wife and his best freind, she was his true love and as I said in a previous posting her death hit him hard, harder than perhaps he ever realised it would.
Yes he loved Jane but again not in the same way as either K.O.A or Anne. He didn’t love her for her, who she was etc, he loved her purely from the standpoint of that she had given him Edward. If Anne B had brought forth a son he would love her for much the same reason for her son, that’s all. A.O.C well they did become freinds after he had divorced her but again that freindship was based on the fact that she had quietly rolled over and given in to his demands. Did he respect her, yeah he did but again only for the same reasons that she’d rolled over and given in to his demands, secretly he probably abhorred that fact that he had had to shell out all this money, land and property to get shot of her.
K.H was the trophy bride, a oneupmanship stab at Francois to prove that Henry still had what it took to pull the birds, and the sexual prowess to put Francois’s to shame etc… His marriage to K.H had nothing to do with love it was purely of a sexual nature and as I said oneupmanship head games on Francois. The comment made about loud and noisy sex was purely for Francois benefit a kind of rub it in Francois’s face tactic, saying “I’m having a great deal of enjoyable sex Francois, with a beautiful young woman, who I totally adore, and loves me too and we are going to have have many many children. You may have the kids Francois, but your willy is rotting away” I’m not too sure but i believe that it was alledged that by 1540/41 Francois was suffering from some sort of venerial disease and as a result his sexual prowess wasn’t as it once was..
After K.H’s downfall Henry realised he was just an old fool. They do say “there is no fool like an old fool” He knew that he simply couldn’t keep with the head games that he and Francois had always played, and perhaps he also realised just how pathetic and stupid it really all was to keep playing these games, neither of them was going to win, no matter what they said or did to each other. It was just a case now of waiting to see who died first so the other could celebrate the being the winner of if nothing else of living longer than their rival. Unfortunately Francois won that game as Henry died in Jan of 1547 with Francois popping his clogs just 2 months later.. Even after K.H’s tangled web of passionate teenage love and lust became unraveled, Francois had the last laugh there too, as I’ve already mentioned in a previous post he could resist sending a letter to Henry saying that “I’m sorry to hear of the wanton and naughty behaviour of the Queen” rubbing the pain of K.H betrayal firmly into Henry’s face and adding a lot more salt into the already salt filled sore wounds that Henry was experiencing.
K.H’s betrayal was nowt to do with love, he didn’t love her, and I think K.H perhaps realised that, which is perhaps why she turned to Culpepper, not for sexual comfort (In my opinion there was no form of sexual contact, and they certainly didn’t have intercourse. I also believe that this was also the case when it came to Anne and George. George had been at court for a few years before Anne returned to England and took her place at court, she looked to George just as K.H did to Culpepper for emotional support, and perhaps advice on how to deal with Fat arse Henry when he was in a strop) it was completely to do with shattered ego and sexual prowess. Lets face it Henry was just a fat useless sad sack of crap, whose only great love in his life was himself…
Shurla Burla I believe is a Turkish word loosely meaning “This way and that”

I think Jane was with the Boleyn faction. It would have been to Jane’s benefit as wife to George to side with his family. George had a good future as a diplomat going for them. This was also her family. If they failed, so would she. Picking a fight with Henry’s mistress shows she was willing enough to help Anne. Saying she was angry enough over the banishment to turn on her family is too much of a stretch for me to believe. If I recall, she wasn’t gone that long.
Fiction has really damaged how people view Jane. She is always portrayed as being a disillusioned, jealous wife. If that were so, I find it hard to believe that Anne would have kept her by her side, or trusted her to help rid Henry of one of his mistresses. Anne also trusted her enough to tell her about Henry’s inability to have sex. Despite what happened at the trial, Anne would not have taken Jane into her confidence about her sex life if she had not trusted her.

True, her reputation has certainly suffered.
Jane was doing what she was asked to do. Serving at court was all Jane had ever known. After what she had gone through with her sister-in-law, I find it hard to believe she thought these meetings a good idea. The blame for these meetings lies at Katherine’s and Culpeper’s door.
Jane made me do it? Seriously?
I agree that gossip later ruined her reputation, but while she was alive there was no gossip about her. This woman was much respected at court. People liked her. She served 5 queens. If she was such a horrible person, Henry certainly wouldn’t have let her back at court after George’s death; and he would never have allowed her to serve his queens, especially Jane.

Perhaps she did think about telling Henry about it, but would he have listened? Henry was completely besotted by K.H, his all hallows speech about her makes that point very clear. So I think if she had said anything he wouldn’t have taken any notice.
Perhaps half the reason why Jane was accused of treason was because she knew what was going on but chose to say nothing.
Although I do feel that Henry was also aware that K.H and Culpepper were close to each other, but didn’t realise that everyone else knew as well.
Although Henry and K.H were noted to have had “loud and noisy sex” nothing had come from it (basically because at this point I think Henry was firing blanks) Henry was desperate to produce spare heirs and quickly and as he was perhaps unable to come up with the goods he perhaps may have thought “well if I give all outward show of having a fantastic sex life and she and Culpepper have a quiet jiggle in the back ground and she gets pregnant no one will know any different.” It was said that Culpepper reminded Henry of the Golden haired youth he used to be, if that’s so then it would make sence that Henry would want a child to be as he once was Edward wasn’t exactly healthy he had several illnesses each of one could have carried him off at anytime, and I think Henry was a little disappointed that Edward wasn’t quite the child he was in his youth. He perhaps reminded him of Arthur, who was never really very strong. If K.H had had children boys especially 1 he may have lived a little longer, as we do know that during his marriage to K.H he started to look after himself a little more, not eating so much and exercising a little more. 2 he would have got the son that he dreamed of the golden haired youth who was strong and vibrant just as he himself once was.
Poor Edward was under a lot of pressure to match his father and seriously if there had been other sons, Henry might have named a second and more stronger son as his heir instead. Taking the pressure of Edward and letting the kid live a relatively stress free existance, Edward may have been destined for the church instead of the crown.

Jane like Anne and K.H was just another innocent victim in Henry’s war against the world.

True Aud/Sharon, but who knows what was running through Henry’s mind at that time. He was a desperate man and desperate people do desperate things. Why did Henry refuse to see Katherine for a few months in 1541? Yeah we know he was ill, but all his other wives had seen him ill, and K.P even nursed him through his final years of illness, “Sitting for hours at his feet with his foot in her lap” Is that down to Ego again? In short he didn’t want K.H seeing him unmanned so to speak.
The thing is everyone knew that he was getting past it, that he walked with the aid of a stick, and at times was so bad had to be carried on his chair by his guards, lifted onto his horse by winch, I also believe he had a rundimentary form of a wheelchair made too. Henry may have seen himself as a Golden Sod, stud muffin, who sexual prowess and atheletic ability was extraordinary and almost Sod like. But he was the only one who saw it, and what’s more believed it.
K.H knew she was marrying a fat, stinking, lying, hypocrital, wife murdering, sad sack of crap, lecher, (There you go Aud just a few of the milder names I have for our “enry”) So she knew exactly what she was getting, she also knew that she had a hard task in front of her to keep him happy. The “loud and noisy sex” bit I believe was K.H’s way of keeping his illusions alive in short she faked it. I don’t blame her for this in fact I think she was right to do it, it kept him happy if he was happy then no one could get hurt if that makes sence.
Although I do feel that he may have got a little frustrated that all of his efforts were in vain. If she had got pregnant (I do believe she did at one time think she was) Henry would have been on cloud nine, but I think in all honestly there was never any hope of her ever getting pregnant with Henry, and I actually feel there is a chance that the fault may have lay with both of them. Henry was firing blanks, and the possibility that K.H was incapable of having a child. The reason I say this is because the torrid affair which according to Joan Bulmer, Mary Lasselles and others who were in the Duchesses household at that time, again the words loud and noisy sex were mentioned, that no child ever came from this union. Henry being much older and not in the best of health you can understand having trouble with coming up with the goods, but both K.H and Dereham were young and therefore more likely to conceive, and yet no hint of a pregnancy ever came out. That’s not to say there wasn’t which was carefully hidden away, but I think if there was Mary Lasselles would have spilled the beans there too as she was quick enough to come forward with the Dereham/K.H sex scandal. What makes me laugh is why did Mary Lasselles wait over a year before comming forward?

Edward had the usual childhood illnesses but I think a lot of his illness was down to stress (again) Henry expected too much from him. Henry had the perfect Prince ideal all mapped out from the time he became King. He wanted someone who was like him, an excellent musician, athelete, diplomat, strong, handsome, a Prince of great intellect and intelligence, a ladies man, etc In short a best buddy and drinking and merry making partner. So although Edward was the son he so desired he wasn’t exactly all the things he wanted in a son. I rather think Henry saw in Edward a shadow of what his brother Arthur had been and didn’t like it.

I agree Aud it is all good. It’s great we have a place where we Tudorians, can throw in ideas from the simple to the more bizarre (That’s usually from me) and know that we aren’t going to get laughed at or ridiculed in anyway. In short as I say when I welcome new members we are mixed bag of scallywags who enjoy a good debate and a few laughs along the way.
What I find so funny is that within a few days our new posters seem like they’ve always been here. Aud is a prime example hasn’t been here a month and yet it seems like he’s been here years..

If Jane Seymour was Henry’s true love it was because she gave himm the son that Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn couldn’t.
However to me Anne Boleyn really was Henry’s true love since he denified the Catholic Church and even his own people to marry her which he never did for the others.

I am not sure if Henry was talking of leaving Anne in ’34. There was talk of him being unhappy/angry with Anne, but as Chapuys says, they would quarrel and then make up, these were lover’s quarrels. They fought over mistresses. The imperial ambassador at Rome reported that Henry had had enough of Anne. Chapuys apparently led him to believe this when he reported that the king had renewed his love that he had held previously for another woman. This may be when Henry chose a mistress, and Anne tried to get rid of her. Later, Henry took Madge Shelton as a mistress.
Aud, could you give a little more info on that? There certainly were the hopes of Anne’s enemies that the king was tiring of her only to discover that they were wrong, as usual.