Although K.H was condemned from the minute her wanton and naughty behaviour came to light and as we know pleading her belly if she had of been pregnant may have saved her life, once the child had been born would Henry still insist on killing her? Personally given what we know on K.H’s behaviour before her marriage (I.e her sexual conduct with Dereham and possibly with Mannox) I believe Henry would have had her executed, for him it would have been a convient way of getting rid of any threat of any person using the child in the future (even if it wasn’t his) to make a claim the throne. I don’t think he would order the death of the child however I think, the child would just disappear into history in much the same way as K.P child by Thomas Seymour did..

Gill said

Boleyn said

Although K.H was condemned from the minute her wanton and naughty behaviour came to light and as we know pleading her belly if she had of been pregnant may have saved her life, once the child had been born would Henry still insist on killing her? Personally given what we know on K.H’s behaviour before her marriage (I.e her sexual conduct with Dereham and possibly with Mannox) I believe Henry would have had her executed, for him it would have been a convient way of getting rid of any threat of any person using the child in the future (even if it wasn’t his) to make a claim the throne. I don’t think he would order the death of the child however I think, the child would just disappear into history in much the same way as K.P child by Thomas Seymour did..

I agree with you, Boleyn…I think KH would survive just long enough to give birth – shedding of infant’s blood was abhorrent even then – and then Henry would have publicly disavowed the child to stop anyone trying to claim it was his, and then it would have disappeared into obscurity. But I think KH was dead regardless.

The shedding of an innocent child’s blood is indeed abborant even today. But it didn’t seem so horrific to Mary, as she ordered the burning of Pettomine Massey, knowing that she was pregnant the child actually being born within the flames and Pettomine somehow managed to throw the child out to someone in the crowd thus saving it’s life, however it was promply chucked back into the flames by one of the people in charge of the burning and died with it’s mother. Pettomine is mentioned I believe in John Knox’s book of Martyrs. This could of course be a complete fabrication, but somehow given how zealous and fanatical Mary became there could be an element of truth in it.

Agreed Sharon. Mary might not of known about Ms Massey being pregnant at the time of her death, but surely she would have been told by someone what had actually happened? Would she (Mary) have approved of the action taken though? Bishop Bonner was a real nasty piece of work, by what little I’ve read about him. He seemed to delight in torturing people whom he considered as Heretic, which given the state of the country under Mary’s reign covered just about everyone. Even breathing in when you should have been breathing out was considered a sign of being a heretic. Bonner’s very apt nickname was “The devil’s dancing bear”.
As for K.H one has to feel a lot of sympathy for her, she was just a silly giddy girl, who was betrayed and thrown to the wolves just because she fell in love. I believe she did truly love Culpepper and if Henry hadn’t have claimed for his own she would perhaps have married Culpepper and actually lived a happy if a somewhat frugal existence.

Silly me Anyanka I completely forgot that Culpepper was Henry’s pet Gopher/Doofer (brain doing the time warp again!!!!) So yes from that point of view if K.H and Culpepper had married, they would have been not rich exactly but comfortably well off. However given that Culpepper and K.H didn’t actually meet up until she came to court as one of A.O.C’s ladies in waiting (although K.H did know Culpepper and he had I believe spend a few months of the year at her home when she lived with her parents) I believe the situation would have come to the same conclusion as it did. Once Henry had made up his mind and pointed his weapon and his next victim the girl was doomed. There is no doubt whatsoever that Culpepper and K.H were attracted to one another, although some people believe there was a sexual relationship between Culpepper and K.H, I myself don’t believe it, their relationship was a strong one, but they both knew the circumstances if they played with fire whilst Henry was alive, in short K.H was a a little fool but she wasn’t stupid.
This is where Henry is entirely to blame for the whole pickle, surely he could see that there was an attraction developing between Culpepper and K.H? Remember when Anne.B came to court, she had a number of admirers 2 of whom were quite determined to win her affections, Henry Percy and Thomas Wyatt and Henry (King) had made his mind up that he would have her if it was the last thing he did, and made a very open point to chase off both Percy and Wyatt and any others who were attracted to her. So I can’t understand why he didn’t have a freindly word with Culpepper and perhaps send him away for a while. Henry needed glasses in later life to be able to read so perhaps his glasses weren’t strong enough to see what was going on, right under his nose.
Henry also in some ways forced the whole situation betwwen Culpepper and K.H to happen. Henry was at that time a bad tempered, cantankious smelly old git, not really up to the challenge of keeping up with a giddy girl young enough to be his daughter, in fact she was even younger than Mary, which must have been an embarrassment for Mary to have a stepmother younger than her, but even so Henry still wasn’t up to the job of keeping this giddy young girl in check. I’m given to believe there was a very short period perhaps of about a month where he was able to dance with her and do all the things he could do when younger, but it was soon over and Henry was reduced to just watching the dancing going on, and I rather think that he expected K.H just to be happy and sit by the side of him and just watch what was going on. Of course she wasn’t and I think that when she wanted to dance it was Culpepper who was her main dance partner, Culpepper was also the one who brought her little gifts and messages from Henry when he was ill. In K.H’s mind the gifts being brought to her by Culpepper was his way of wooing her (Hope you get what I mean) Anyway if Henry hadn’t of cast his eye upon her, would Culpepper and K.H been allowed to marry anyway, Dereham claimed there was a pre-contract between them and Joan Bulmer testified that Dereham and K.H often had sex when they lived in the Duchess’s household, and that Dereham and K.H referred to each other as husband and wife, so that would invalidate any marriage idea that Culpepper may have had towards K.H but also Culpepper and K.H’s family relationship, they were cousins after all. In the normal circumstancces that could have been got around via a dispensation from the Pope, but now that Henry was head of the church I doubt he would have given permission to marry, as he wanted her for himeslf. If they had of married I agree that Henry may have taken her for his mistress, that’s of course if he and A.O.C had stayed married.

Am I right in thinking, that when K.H’s disolute behaviour with Dereham, and possible Mannox became known although Henry was annoyed and angry he had really just planned to divorce her. It was only after he found out that Culpepper had, had a dabble too, that he ordered her death.
Who was it who told Cramner or whoever was in charge of K.H’s interrogation, that Culpepper had been messing about with her too?

Anyanka: It was a good job Mary did cancel the “le roi volent” because if she hadn’t we wouldn’t have had Elizabeth 1st. Gardiner would have got rid of her.

Thank you Sharon.. I always thought it might have been Jane Rochford, who said that Culpepper was playing nudey prod games with Katherine.
Of course thinking about it now, it would only be completely natural for Dereham to have bleated about Culpepper. Dereham after all considered himself as Katherine’s husband, so Culpepper had not only been making Henry a cuckold, but himself as well.
In which case in begs the next what if question.. If Henry had just quietly divorced K.H would Dereham have taken K.H back? although she adamently stated there was no pre-contract between them the fact that she was known to have had sex with him in the maiden’s chamber in front of witnesses, well more heard than actually seen, but one doesn’t do a lot of huffing and puffing in their sleep (Snoring yes as Dinosaur does to the point that I have to clock him one with a pillow at times) for nothing, which seems to suggest to me at least that there must have been some sort of an understanding between them to actually have sex.
I believe it was you who said it Sharon?,(apolgizes in advance if it wasn’t) that once when someone asked the Duchess where K.H was she replied “oh she’s off having sex somewhere with Dereham”
Therefore in that statement alone it tells me that the Duchess knew what was happening under her roof with Dereham and K.H and basically either turned a blind eye or couldn’t have cared less, although she did once catch them in a intimate embrace and boxed both Dereham’s and K.H’s ears.
From that standpoint if she, the Duchess could see Dereham getting a little too close to K.H for comfort why didn’t she send him packing?
Was Mannox sent packing? or did he leave when he realised that he wasn’t going to get anywhere with K.H?