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5:32 pm
February 24, 2010
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Oh dear, I hope I didn’t put it like that. Although depending on my mood…LOL I believe the reply from the Duchess was, “I warrant you if you seek him in Katherine Howard’s chamber ye shall find him there.” I do believe that she was frustrated by Katherine and Dereham’s antics, and not quite sure how to deal with them. It may have come as a relief to the Duchess when it was decided Katherine should go to court. Why she didn’t send Dereham packing is a good question. It appears that Dereham’s adventuresome ways appealled to the Duchess. She liked him and perhaps wanted to help him.
Manox did leave the services of the Duchess after she had found him and Katherine together twice. He went to work for a neighbor I think. There is not a record of the Duchess forcing him to leave. Even after finding the two together, she merely yelled at them and proceeded to ignore their meetings altogether. Katherine is the one who ended the fling with Manox when she found out he had described in detail his trysts to Mary Lascelles. She forgave him, but she was done with him.
Would Dereham take Katherine back…haha….would she want him to take her back?
1:27 am
November 18, 2010
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I’m not sure the Dowager Dutchess knew all the details about KH and either gentleman.And I’m certain the Duke didn’t.
Adultery and fornication were moral sins and a woman caught had to perform penance by walking barefoot to the church wearing only her shift and carrying a candle. IIRC, Katherine Swynford was sentanced to perform this action. Lower class woman were subject to a whipping at the cart-tail.
this is an intereasting read..caution PDF file http://centerforthehumanities……France.pdf
It's always bunnies.
11:59 am
January 3, 2012
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This is where I find the Duchess’s whole attitude about Dereham and K.H very strange. I’m guessing that she was aware that they had some sort of relationship other then the usual courtly type relationship, which usually consisted of writing poems or songs about love or the beauty and virtue of the person in question, or picking up a dropped book, and perhaps wearing their colours at a joust. If the Duchess was aware of this and didn’t really know how to put a stop to it, surely she was glad to have the problem solved by K.H going to court. Why then did the Duchess write a letter of recommendation for Dereham to be admitted to K.H’s household? She surely would have known the danger she was putting K.H in by writing that letter? Did Ddereham use blackmail against the Duchess for her to write the letter? Did Dereham think that perhaps he could pick up where he left off with K.H, in short share her bed when Henry wasn’t in the mood? How must he have felt, when he discovered that K.H had got another lover? (Culpepper) Did he hope that Henry would spare her his and her life if he dobbed Culpepper in and that they could just ride off into the sunset together?
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
4:24 pm
January 3, 2012
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Anyanka said
I’m not sure the Dowager Dutchess knew all the details about KH and either gentleman.And I’m certain the Duke didn’t.
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Again this is a strange set up. surely even if the Duchess didn’t know all the details of what was going on between Dereham and K.H, she would have told the Duke that although she wasn’t too sure what was going on she was pretty certain that Dereham and K.H’s “relationship” was more than just 2 ships in the night. Maybe if the Duke Poppingjay (Odious little git) was told about these suspitions he may have been able to do something lets say a little more drastic, to prevent any scandal comming out later (as it did) and scupper his plan. In short make sure that Dereham met with a tragic accident. Therefore when Mary Lasselles made her statement it might have been able to have been covered up and an explaination given, such as Dereham raped K.H and as a result suffered the wrath of her family. Why did Mary Lasseles come forward anyway? It’s not as if it would have gained her anything, in fact if my rotton memory serves her brother was executed in 1543 for being a heretic.
I’m not too sure but didn’t K.H say that Dereham had raped her? if so why? Did she think by telling Cranmer that Dereham had raped her it would save her life? I guess she was so desperate to save her life that given what little she understood of the grown up world she really believed it would..
K.H was really at then end of the day a silly immature little girl, who really wanted to please everyone and did silly things in order to make freinds.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
8:21 pm
February 24, 2010
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The Duchess knew something was going on with Dereham and Katherine. I just don’t think she knew the whole sordid story. I don’t think the Duke was aware of any of it. Placing their daughters, nieces, etc. in high positions at court was what the nobles did. Had the Duke known of Katherine’s past, I don’t think he would have put Katherine at court. He may have found her a husband and been done with her.
The Duchess was fond of Dereham. Don’t know why, but she was. That is why she exerted her patronage power and asked Katherine to find room for him in her household. Katherine said the Duchess asked her to place Dereham in her household, so she did.
It was Mary Lassell’s brother, John, a fanatical protestant, who first came forward. Mary had told him about the goings on at Lambeth. He quite happily went to the council and informed them of the stories.
Katherine never claimed she was raped by Dereham. In fact, she admitted that she had been a willing partner, but to her great loss, she said they were never pre-contracted or married. She was desperate to save her life, but she thought the king would forgive a young foolish girl’s mistake, as long as she said there were no marriage ties to Dereham. That was her mistake.
Anyanka,
I didn’t read your referral yet, but good point. Jane Shore was Edward IV’s mistress. After Edward died Richard forced her to walk the street barefoot in her shift with a candle so all would know her as a wh*re.
10:15 pm
January 3, 2012
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But it still poses a question to why John Lasselles actually mentioned it to the council.? It’s not as if they gained anything from it? Is it possible that perhaps Mary had asked K.H for a place in her household and K.H said no, so Mary tittle tattled in order to cause trouble?
If the Duchess was as fond as Dereham as is believed I would have thought it would have been better for him to remain with her then go to court?
I agree with you about Duke Poppingjay, if the Duchess had raised any concerns about K.H light behaviourit would have reflected very badly on her as well as on K.H, after all K.H and the other ladies that were in the Duchess’s household were there to learn the courtly graces etc, that would fit them for a decent husband and possible places at court. The fact that the Duchess although she provided the basic educational needs she had more or less left the girls to their own devices. Am I right in thinking that Duke Poppingjay was actually paying the Duchess a widows pension of sorts to her? If so then she was really dependent upon him and therefore he could cut her off without a penny, if he had have found out about the whole Dereham/K.H situation..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
12:20 am
November 18, 2010
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In Joanna Denny’s Katherine Howard(p209) John Lascalles had asked Mary to ask for a place in the queen’s household and Mary refused, telling him about KH’s past.
However teh date isn’t given, JL could have had that info since the marriage or from a later date.
Certainly the Dowager Dutchess used the time between the arrests of Manox and dereham and hers to burn some of Dereham’s papers and to hide her money.
It's always bunnies.
12:29 am
November 18, 2010
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Boleyn said
Am I right in thinking that Duke Poppingjay was actually paying the Duchess a widows pension of sorts to her? If so then she was really dependent upon him and therefore he could cut her off without a penny, if he had have found out about the whole Dereham/K.H situation..
As a widow, Agnes was in control of her jointure which was a sum of money or lands which generated an income (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointure). So she was independantly weathy.
The value of a jointure was one reason why oldish widows sometimes married younger, ambitious men since it would then become the new husband’s property. Katherine Parr was courted by Thomas Seymour as much for her jointure as her personal qualities before Henry cast his eye on her. After Henry’s death, her jointure was much much higher.
It's always bunnies.
1:31 pm
January 3, 2012
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Anyanka This is true. Marriage was all about wealth and property, as well as power.
It does make you wonder though just what paperwork the Duchess burned?
Duke Poppingjay must have been livid with the Duchess though for not disclosing the true state of things between Dereham and K.H.
But there again knowing what he was like he was probably too busy to be angry with the Duchess at that time as he was busy trying to save his own skin.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
8:46 pm
February 24, 2010
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In Baldwin’s book about Katherine, he says that John Lascalles was a protestant fanatic who felt his religion was languishing. He told his friends not to worry, ‘for the enemies of God would shortly destroy themselves.’ He told them he would find a way. Mary’s gossip was the answer. He hated the Howard family who were Catholic, and was happy to have the info from his sister which he knew bring a Howard and Catholic queen down. Poor Katherine. I don’t think she cared one way or the other about religion, and yet, this was the reason Lascelles moved against her. That is why he took his sister’s stories to the council. Mary Lascalles had no love for Katherine and she gossiped about life at Lambeth to all who would listen. Sadly, Katherine didn’t seem to have people around her who loved her. They all seemed to use her and then they all turned on her.
I think Dereham and Katherine were perfectly matched. Both of them were ignorant when it came to their actions. He made some very brash statements including, “if the king were dead, I’m sure I might marry her.” As we all know from the accusations against Anne, this was a treasonous statement. These two never paid attention to what went before them. The Duchess had a warm spot in her heart for Dereham. From what I have read he seems to be the type of guy who could charm women, even older women. However, I think if she had known the whole story, she would not have recommended him to Katherine’s household.
At the time of the arrests the Duchess opened one of Dereham’s trunks that he had left at her house and she destroyed a number of documents. I have no idea what those documents were. The government…well Henry…”argued that the breaking of the coffers imported, a marvelous presumption that the writings contained matters of treason and that the Duchess’ intent had been to conceal such letters of treason.”
I know how you feel Boleyn. There are many holes in this story. The one thing I am sure of is had the Duke known of any of this, Katherine would never have been placed in AOC’s household. BTW, the Duke sat with rest of the council at the trial of Dereham and Culpeper and he laughed heartily during the examination of the prisoners. He avoided his stepmother, and later boasted that it was he who revealed her treason when she broke into Dereham’s chest and burned some of the documents.
4:43 am
November 18, 2010
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Sharon said
The Duchess had a warm spot in her heart for Dereham. From what I have read he seems to be the type of guy who could charm women, even older women. However, I think if she had known the whole story, she would not have recommended him to Katherine’s household.
Plausible rogues are very charming…I’m guessing it was one way of getting ahead in Tudor times as well as a way of losing a head.
Such men prey on vulnerable women old or young, i think Dereham was a better than average looking man with the gift of the gab who effortlessly charmed women while irritating men around him..
It's always bunnies.
1:05 pm
January 3, 2012
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Anyanka quite right. It’s obvisous that Dereham must have appealed to the Duchess’s vanity. I suppose a reasonable example to explain this situation could be likened to that of Elizabeth and the Earl of Essex (Robert Junior) In today’s sociaty I guess Dereham could pass a sort of Gigolo he may have even been able to get the Duchess to part with money, to be able to buy trinkets and nic naks for K.H.
Sharon I think perhaps she knew that there was more to K.H and Dereham then just an innocent flirtation, and perhaps he managed to persuade the Duchess, that K.H wasn’t happy in court and that she was yearning for him. Her statement about if someone wanted Dereham they would find him in K.H’s chamber says to me at least that she knew more about the whole situation then she let on to Duke Poppingjay.
The Duke was getting to be a desperate man, the Seymours were slowly pushing their way to the top of the tree and that put his nose very out of joint. Duke Poppingjay did at least have a diluted strain of Royal blood in his veins and for the Seymours who he saw as upstarts to push him out of the way of Henry’s favour he was annoyed. He really didn’t understand why Henry should favour the Seymours who were newcomers to the whole court political scene and hadn’t had the experience he had, had to to take their advice over his. Ok so their sister gave Henry a son, but that in his eyes was no big deal.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
9:14 pm
February 24, 2010
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Truth…I think the Duchess was a romantic old woman who was charmed by a young gigilo and she was every bit as naive as her great niece. We don’t know what motivated her to recommend Dereham to Katherine, but it is just as possible that he told her there was nothing between him and Katherine anymore; and since other people from the Duchess’ household were now with Katherine, why would Katherine object to hiring one more?
Just sayin’.
10:40 pm
January 3, 2012
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Sharon you never fail to give a giggle.. “just saying” she says. LOL
In fact you make a very valid point, it is entirely possible that, that is exactly what Dereham did say to the Duchess, but I also feel that perhaps the Duchess also though it would be good for K.H to have a lot of her freinds in and around the court, at that time.
Lets face it Henry wasn’t in the best of health and certainly wasn’t a young man either, and neither were those around him save for Culpepper. So in some ways the Duchess perhaps thought she was doing both Dereham and K.H a favour. I can see her reasoning here, the thought of poor K.H surrounded by a load of of crumblies who tutted and were perhaps quite indignant with her at times when she had one of her blonde moments can’t have been easy for her to stomach. If you look at it from that point of view or should I say K.H’s point of view she must have felt at times very frustrated that her every movement was being scrutised and talked about by the older members of court. No one could possibly know just how much longer Henry had got to live, he could live for decades or just 5 minutes, so of course if anything did happen to him whilst married to K.H, and if she wasn’t pregnant at the time of his death or had, had at least 1 child (by Henry) she wouldn’t exactly have a very happy time of things at court after his death and in fact although she would be a Dowager Queen and rich she wouldn’t really be given a lot of choice on who she wanted to marry, Duke Poppingjay would make sure of that and would marry her off to someone who could use her to serve his purpose (if that makes sence).
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
10:58 pm
January 3, 2012
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I really don’t like Duke Poppingjay (well DUH) I feel he regarded woman as just pawns and used and abused them all to gain wealth, power and position solely for his own needs. I’m not too sure but I think one of the reasons that Anne.B and himself fell out was because she could see him for what he was and wasn’t afraid to give him a lick of cat (of nine tails) when he became rather puffed up and pompous around her..
Put simply he didn’t like educated woman. So K.H to him was his idea of a perfect woman a silly little air head who he could dictate to and dominate, and therefore via K.H he could also rule Henry and England..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
4:56 am
November 18, 2010
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Most men regarded women as chattels..they were property to be used to gain advantage, monetry , political or to gain social status. Women certainly in the socially powerful groups understood that, might not have liked it but knew that thier marriages were to benefit both families in one way or another.
It's always bunnies.
11:48 am
January 3, 2012
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Anyanka said
Most men regarded women as chattels..they were property to be used to gain advantage, monetry , political or to gain social status. Women certainly in the socially powerful groups understood that, might not have liked it but knew that thier marriages were to benefit both families in one way or another.
Again true Anyanka. It’s just as well we finally grew up and away from all that. Although one thing that Henry may have said is true. Poor men can choose their wives, whilst I have to make do with what I’m given. I think that on the whole peasents in Tudor times were perhaps a lot happier then the nobs, although they were at times badly treated..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
6:00 pm
February 24, 2010
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There’s that “woe is me” thing again. Henry said that? Of all the men living at that time, it surprises me that that would come out of his mouth since he chose every one of his wives with the exception of AOC’s and he prompltly divorced her when he discovered he didn’t like her looks.
I have to find a good book about the Duke. Anybody know of one?
9:29 pm
December 5, 2009
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Sharon said
There’s that “woe is me” thing again. Henry said that? Of all the men living at that time, it surprises me that that would come out of his mouth since he chose every one of his wives with the exception of AOC’s and he prompltly divorced her when he discovered he didn’t like her looks.
I have to find a good book about the Duke. Anybody know of one?
David Head, ‘The Ebbs and the Flow of Fortune’, is a good biography on the life of the Duke of Norfolk. I think it was that book which puts forward the view that the duke was not happy for Catherine Howard to be queen and that he never actively put her forward.
11:37 pm
November 18, 2010
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Sharon said
There’s that “woe is me” thing again. Henry said that? Of all the men living at that time, it surprises me that that would come out of his mouth since he chose every one of his wives with the exception of AOC’s and he prompltly divorced her when he discovered he didn’t like her looks.
I have to find a good book about the Duke. Anybody know of one?
Didn’t the poor dear have to be begged by parliment to re-marry following Anne’s execution?
It's always bunnies.
