I’m unconvinced of COA’s virginity. Apparently after Arthur died there was a delay of at least a couple of months before Henry was declared the heir, while they waited to see if she was pregnant or not. Wouldn’t that have been a good time to pipe up and say ‘hey guys, don’t bother, I can’t be preggers because we didn’t do the nasty” ? But she never said a word and let everyone wait. There is no real evidence that Arthur was frail or sickly and he seems to have been expected to inherit, stick a teenaged boy in bed with a pretty girl and tell him to get on with it…there’s not many who wouldn’t happily oblige. As to Katherine not getting pregnant – I read somewhere that Margaret Beaufort had laid down strict rules about when they could sleep together, so perhaps they just never did it on the magic night. Also, wasn’t there some evidence that Katherine faked a pregnancy early in her marriage to Henry, because she hadn’t concieved yet after several months? Or did I imagine that? If it’s true, it also shows that Catherine was capable of being deceitful (although I find it hard to imagine what she thought it would achieve!) I don’t buy the ‘she wouldn’t have lied because she was so religious’ argument either – there have been countless instances of religious people lying. She wouldn’t have felt her soul imperilled so long as she told her confessor, and what she told him went with him to the grave.

Janet said

You make some very good points Gill. I’m not all that familiar with Catholicism in Tudor times, but if Catherine did sin by lying and then confessed to her priest and did her penance, wasn’t the lie kind of wiped off the record, so to speak?

Janet,
Yes, as long as she never said it again.
Gil,
I think when a royal husband died, the wife was sequestered whether she knew she was pregnant or not. Mary, Henry’s sister, was also sequestered after Louis died. The wife’s word didn’t much count for anything.

Louise,
She couldn’t. Confession is all about telling the sin, receiving Penance for the sin, asking forgiveness, and never committing the sin again. If KOA lied to her confessor, and continued to commit the sin in the future, she would be making a mockery of the sacrament. She would have died with the sin on her soul. To Katherine that would have been unacceptable. It’s not only about telling your sins. It is about not committing the same sin in the future. I give Katherine a little credit here. She was a very devout woman.
To Katherine, Confession and Penance were sacred sacraments. It was a duty. Living with a lie, let alone telling it over and over for years, I think would be impossible for her. I don’t think she was a “Sometimes Catholic.” I don’t think she was the type of Catholic who would think telling a lie was something her God would overlook. For her, life started after death, and she had to be worthy of attaining everlasting life. I think she was one of those rare true believers who would not let any sin sit on her soul.

Olga said

Didn’t he get a special dispensation with Anne because he had slept with Mary, and then used Mary when he needed to get rid of Anne? Argh. I remember a priest telling me once you shouldn’t take the Bible too literally

On Katherine and Arthur, I was just thinking about this a couple of days ago, as you do. They were married for six months. Katherine conceived with Henry right away, now I would think she would have managed the same with Arthurif they’d been sleeping together regularly.
But I agree with Ellie, if she did lie, I wouldn’t blame her one bit.

I believe Henry did ask for a special dispensation, to marry Anne although Anne was not named on Henry’s request. He mearly asked if he could have a dispensation to marry a woman of his choosing, despite the fact he had already had a relationship with another family member.
I don’t suppose we will ever know the truth about KOA and Arthur’s marriage on whether it was consumated, but from what we know of KOA, I believe she was telling the truth when she said that she and Arthur didn’t have sexual intercourse. KOA was a deeply devout woman I don’t think she would have lied about that as she would know that her soul would forever be dammed. If she did lie about Arthur, I think it was an honourable lie and done for the best of reasons, on her part. After all going back to Spain was not an option for her and she believed with her whole heart that’s God’s calling for her was marriage and children (regardless of the crown). That is something she steadfastly stuck to all her life, and for that I do have a lot of respect for her, but as I have already said, I’ll like to smack her one for as well.
If she had stepped aside she could have lived the rest of her life in comfort and still been shown the same respect as she got as Queen. Mary wouldn’t have been declared a bastard, and could have been married with children of her own by the time she became Queen which again would have still been possible.

I am not to sure about this but I think it was Cardinal Campagio who made the suggestion to KOA about the convent, but I also have a feeling that Wolsey may have implied to KOA about going into a convent.

In Giles Tremlett’s book, Catherine of Aragon, he tells the same story as Denny. She wasn’t eating, she was always sick with some malady or another, and her periods were irregular. She was constantly under a physician’s care. She suffered from hot sweats, cold sweats, tertian fever, derangements of the stomach, etc. Tremlett says her symptoms sound like anorexia. (this happened from the time she got to England until 1507 when her spanish physician said the color had finally returned to her face.)
Henry VII was so worried about her health and eating habits that he had Arthur write to the Pope. Tremlett says the Pope’s reply is dated confusingly. The Pope told Arthur he had the right to prevent her from overdoing the fasting. “A wife does not have the full power of her own body.” She was endangering her own health and her ability to have children.
Denny takes it further than Tremlett when she says this is proof that they were having sex. Denny didn’t seem to care for Katherine. I suppose this subject will be around for another 500 years. As we know it wasn’t Edward who was constantly ill. Sounds like Katherine who was the one who may have been sick most of the time during that marriage.

Denny’s obvious anti-Katherine bias was kind of annoying. The poor woman could do nothing right in her eyes. Everything was either arrogance or pride or deceitfulness or treachery. I don’t think it’s necessary to demonise KOA in order to be a supporter of Anne. I do believe KOA was stubborn and yes, probably quite prideful but I also think she felt she had good valid reasons to fight the divorce. Whether we agree with her or not is not really the point…she thought she did.

Brewing wasn’t an exact science at those times. Monks used to use ale/beer as liquid food during fast days.

Modern Trappist beers run at 6-10 % ABV with some being brewed upto 11.3% ABV( the same as some modern white wines). Small beer which is the grist being re-boiled with fresh water varies due to the original ale/beer style being brewed. So anything form 2-6 % ABV was typical.

One thing I don’t ‘get’ about KOA, is what did she really hope to achieve? I understand why she did not want to say her marriage was invalid or have her daughter declared illegitimate, but I don’t understand what she really thought the outcome of her actions would be. She was by far the longest married to Henry, but I think she perhaps understood him the least of all. Firstly, he was never going to allow anyone to compel him to do anything – the more she tried to force him to reinstate her the harder he would kick back. And secondly, imagine if somehow she did manage to compel him to take her back…did she imagine things would go back to how they had once been? A thwarted Henry was a vicious Henry, and he would have loathed her for humiliating him and forcing him to comply to her will. Can you imagine how poisonous the court would have been? I think Henry would have treated her very badly anyway but publicly because she would be at court, and I think he would have lashed out even more at Mary too to punish her mother. He would have made their lives possibly even more intolerable than he did. I don’t get how KOA could have imagined any possible positive outcome from it all.

Olga, I think you could be on to something here..If you think about it most if not all of Henry’s mistresses were always ladies in KOA’s circle.
KOA’s knew Henry liked a fumble outside marriage so when one of her ladies was flavour of the month for Henry, she was already working out how to get shot of her once Henry had, had his fun. With the exception of Mary Boleyn who was already married when Henry had a dabble with her his mistresses were generally quickly married off and left court. Perhaps coming back for short visists when their husbands were needed in London.
Anne was very different to any of Henry’s other mistresses. Anne wasn’t all “Yes Sir, No Sir, 3 bags fulls Sir, Bottle up your farts Sir and sell them for perfume”. She basically told Henry to go do one.
The concept of a woman saying no to him, and made him all the more determined to have her in any which way he could. KOA keeping her close was perhaps her way of finding a chink in Anne’s armour to use against her, she already tried to turn Henry away from Anne by believing the gossip that was circulating about Anne having 3 Nipples and a 6th finger, which was why she got her to play cards with Henry and herself. By trying to show Henry, that Anne had defects Henry would quickly point his weapon elsewhere, at least that was her idea, and Anne could quietly leave the court married to some varlet of KOA’s choosing, and Henry being embarrased by the thought of wanting to mate with a woman with defects etc would agree with KOA to marry and get Anne away from court as fast possible and thank God for his lucky escape. KOA would once again be the top dog in Henry’s woman..
Both Henry and KOA were stubborn, they both dug their heels in and KOA in some ways developed Ostrich syndrome.
KOA refused point blank to see Henry’s side of the arguement, he needed a son and she couldn’t do that. She was jealous of the influence Anne had over Henry, and perhaps felt resentful that after all she’s done for him, he was trying to cast her aside like a worn out shoe. She actually must have felt very humiliated. She knew that Mary couldn’t ever have hoped to rule in her own right, that whoever she married would be deemed the ruler of England, even if the throne came to him by the hand of his wife. England had been her home a lot longer than she’s lived in Spain surely she would have wanted England to stay English and not just part Spain or France etc? In wanting that she would have betrayed the English people she loved and who loved her too..
Henry on the other hand was desperate for a son, KOA was too old to bear children. He was in love with a woman who promised to give him a son.
He was fed up with the boring life he had with KOA and perhaps also fed up with the way she bossed him or perhaps appeared to, about too.
KOA in his eyes still saw him as child and at times treated him like one too and it annoyed him. Anne had opened Henry’s eyes and shown him that things could be very different if only he grew up, so to speak. Henry didn’t want to see England become just another dominion of some forgien country. He was born English, his parents were English and he wanted the throne to remain English.