Boleyn said

Olga, I think you could be on to something here..If you think about it most if not all of Henry’s mistresses were always ladies in KOA’s circle.
KOA’s knew Henry liked a fumble outside marriage so when one of her ladies was flavour of the month for Henry, she was already working out how to get shot of her once Henry had, had his fun. With the exception of Mary Boleyn who was already married when Henry had a dabble with her his mistresses were generally quickly married off and left court. Perhaps coming back for short visists when their husbands were needed in London.
Anne was very different to any of Henry’s other mistresses. Anne wasn’t all “Yes Sir, No Sir, 3 bags fulls Sir, Bottle up your farts Sir and sell them for perfume”. She basically told Henry to go do one.
The concept of a woman saying no to him, and made him all the more determined to have her in any which way he could. KOA keeping her close was perhaps her way of finding a chink in Anne’s armour to use against her, she already tried to turn Henry away from Anne by believing the gossip that was circulating about Anne having 3 Nipples and a 6th finger, which was why she got her to play cards with Henry and herself. By trying to show Henry, that Anne had defects Henry would quickly point his weapon elsewhere, at least that was her idea, and Anne could quietly leave the court married to some varlet of KOA’s choosing, and Henry being embarrased by the thought of wanting to mate with a woman with defects etc would agree with KOA to marry and get Anne away from court as fast possible and thank God for his lucky escape. KOA would once again be the top dog in Henry’s woman..
Both Henry and KOA were stubborn, they both dug their heels in and KOA in some ways developed Ostrich syndrome.
KOA refused point blank to see Henry’s side of the arguement, he needed a son and she couldn’t do that. She was jealous of the influence Anne had over Henry, and perhaps felt resentful that after all she’s done for him, he was trying to cast her aside like a worn out shoe. She actually must have felt very humiliated. She knew that Mary couldn’t ever have hoped to rule in her own right, that whoever she married would be deemed the ruler of England, even if the throne came to him by the hand of his wife. England had been her home a lot longer than she’s lived in Spain surely she would have wanted England to stay English and not just part Spain or France etc? In wanting that she would have betrayed the English people she loved and who loved her too..
Henry on the other hand was desperate for a son, KOA was too old to bear children. He was in love with a woman who promised to give him a son.
He was fed up with the boring life he had with KOA and perhaps also fed up with the way she bossed him or perhaps appeared to, about too.
KOA in his eyes still saw him as child and at times treated him like one too and it annoyed him. Anne had opened Henry’s eyes and shown him that things could be very different if only he grew up, so to speak. Henry didn’t want to see England become just another dominion of some forgien country. He was born English, his parents were English and he wanted the throne to remain English.

Katherine had great examples of successful female rulers – she descended from them!

Urraca, Queen Regnant of Castile reigned from 1108 – 1126. She was named Queen Regnant after her father’s death. Urraca was described as ‘prudent, modest and of good sense’. She was able to hold her kingdoms together and pass them on intact to her son Alfonso VII on her death.
Petronilla, Queen Regnant of Aragon, reigned from 1136 – 1163, when she abdicated in favor of her son Alfonso II, although she continued to advise and counsel him.
Eleanor of Aquitaine had eight children with her husband, Louis VII of France, and KoA is a descendent of their daughter – Marie of France, Countess of Champagne wife of Henry I. Eleanor of Aquitaine was a ruler in her own right.
The list goes on… And her mother of course, who was a very strong, capable ruler.

Katherine certainly thought her daughter would be able to rule, BUT Katherine would have had her hands full convincing him that a girl could be queen in England. From the beginning he was a bit crazy when it came to securing the throne with only sons. She could have believed Mary could rule, and even give her the education needed to rule; but the final decision wouldn’t have been up to her. It was up to Henry.

I find it hard to believe that he left KOA and later KP in charge of the country for the little time he was off fighting wars with France. They both proved the country could be run by competent women. It all came down to what Henry wanted at the time. He wanted the glory of war, so it was okay to leave a woman in charge. Otherwise, not so much.

Boleyn said
Which is something I really don’t get surely if he was having these doubts back then he would want to get the facts straight about the legality of his marriage sorted then? If the marriage wasn’t legal any son they did have could also be classed a bastard, having said that it wouldn’t be the first time a bastard had sat on the throne would it? (William the Conqueror was a bastard) and not rake up all the crap with Arthur etc almost 30 years later. Personally I think he must have looked a damn fool in the court dragging up KOA’s past with Arthur, and credit where credit is due KOA showed him up good and proper within the court for it too, served the fat git right…I actually wonder if some of the things said in that court were actually as a result of bribery, and that some of the people that gave evidence against KOA weren’t in her household at Ludlow during her marriage to Arthur. She couldn’t have known everyone in her household and it’s not as if her marriage to Arthur was long enough to get to know everyone..

I think Bo that Anne was a catalyst, whether she meant to be or not. Henry may have been thinking about the legality of his marriage in 1511, but as you said there was still time for Katherine to conceive, and I suppose he just became complacent about it. Then Mary was born a few years later, live and healthy, so from there they would have both hoped for another heir. It was the subsequent miscarriages that would have got him thinking again, and this time he had fallen madly in love with someone, and could see a future with her. By refusing him Anne made his feelings for her all the more stronger, far more than his other mistresses. I have never believed Anne was making a play for the crown by doing this, I believe she was genuinely protecting her virginity, but this was the catalyst.

ITA with you both.

Anne had spent time in France and saw the goings on there and returned to see her sister become Henry’s mistress. She saw how he took up a woman and then dumped them.

Anne appears to be far too intelligent to just have a fling before marriage, even with the king. I’m sure when he first approached her it was a ‘WTF’ moment. She knew her value as a Boleyn woman. She didn’t want to be just another discard. She’d had a broken love affair with Henry Percy by this time. SHe knew that she was capable of deep love as well as being aware that she wanted the same amount of love in return.

When Henry started to persue her..she wasn’t intereasted at all.. Saying no was her only defense against a persistant admirer. How much her family worked on her is a matter for debate, but over time she became to realise she could do better than her sister so she decided to accept Henry as her husband.

If she thought how long it would take her and what the final result would be, I don’t think those fantasies crossed her mind until it was too late. Having to wait for 6 years to get married and then 3 years later being tried for adultry and treason is really beyond all belief.

Hi Jane and welcome to the forum.
I get all of the wives. The person that I don’t get is Henry.
I admire KOA. It wasn’t only Compaggio who asked Katherine to become a nun. Henry sent many priests and councellors to try and bully her. Compaggio and Wolsey went to see her. She was shocked when both of them told her she should become a nun. Compaggio told her the Pope thought it was the best solution rather than press for a trial. Her final answer to Compaggio and the Pope was that she would “never comply.” She “intended to live and die in the state of matrimony, to which God had called her and that she would always remain of that opinion and that she would never change it.” You rarely hear that today. And that is an awful lot of pressure to bear. She was willing to go up against the Pope of Rome. That may not mean much today, but in her time, to go against the wishes of a King, many Bishops and priests, councellors and a Pope? That took guts.
I think this was a very brave statement to make to the Bishop and the Pope. They were of her faith and yet they were men trying to put asunder what they had said God had joined together. She was having none of it. Quite frankly, it says more about the woman and her strong belief than it does about the faithfulness of the men involved. For the men it was all about politics. For her, it was all about faith and the vows she had taken.
Even if she was using her religion to try to keep her marriage together, you have to admire her tenacity.
I blame Henry for what happened to Mary, not Katherine. He could have let her see her Mother. He could have kept Mary at court. He could have spoken to her. He didn’t. They say he loved Mary very much. I’m not seeing the love here. He didn’t want any reminder of Katherine at court, and Mary would have reminded him of her. Hence, she was banished. He did the same to Elizabeth after Anne’s death.

Gill said

Sharon said

I blame Henry for what happened to Mary, not Katherine. He could have let her see her Mother. He could have kept Mary at court. He could have spoken to her. He didn’t. They say he loved Mary very much. I’m not seeing the love here. He didn’t want any reminder of Katherine at court, and Mary would have reminded him of her. Hence, she was banished. He did the same to Elizabeth after Anne’s death.

This was a recurring theme with Henry – once he decided to do the dirty on someone he removed them from his sight so he didn’t have to be confronted with the consequences of his actions. He could put them out of his mind and not feel guilty that way. For that reason I don’t believe he really intended to have Kathryn Parr arrested – she would not have been allowed to get near him to plead her case if he had. I think he was just trying to frighten her because he was getting tired of her discussing reform. It worked (quel surprise!)

You are both right here. Henry never liked to admit his faults, it was easier for him to get the very thing that would have have brought his faults to the surface and make him deal with them out of the way.. Hence the reason to why Mary and Elizabeth were shut away and all but forgotten.
I believe in some ways he did the same thing with Henry Fitzroy, although he was acknowledged and given a household and an upbringing as was fitting. He didn’t really take much interest in him as such.

There were rumours that he intended to legitimise him and make him heir but I think deep down he knew that people would never really except him as King, there was also a rumour that he wanted to marry him to Mary as well. That doesn’t bear thinking about…

As for love with the exception of Anne whom he did truly love, the only love Henry had for anyone was himself. There was no room for anyone else in Henry’s ego. Totally agree about K.P Olga. It’s entirely possible that he also got fed up with Bishop Gardiner keep moaning on about K.P’s reformist views and to shut him up. Gardiner I think wanted power for himself and Henry saw that, Henry was head of the Church and he went along with Gardiner to lure him into a trap and to see just how far Gardiner would go to challenge the Royal supremecy..I also think that Henry was angry at Gardiner for his treatment of Anne Askew. Gardiner knew the rules when it came to torturing of woman, but was so determined to bring down K.P and even perhaps Henry’s Church he just got drunk on his power and poor Anne Askew suffered because of it. Gardiner as we know recanted of his alleigence to Henry’s Church and was imprisoned for Eddy’s reign because of his Catholic beliefs, and Mary set him free in her reign and gave him a position at her court where he was one of Elizabeth’s tormenters.
When the Pope was head of the Church, if a Churchman suspected someone of not being as devout to the church as they should be it was the Church men who arrested them and questioned them and made the decision on what to do with them.
When Henry became Head of the Church in England the churchmen had to go to Henry and ask permission to try this person and give their reasons behind why they felt they were not as devout as they should be.. K.P’s relious reforms were well known and Henry accepted that, in fact I rather think the conversations he had with her were interesting, perhaps he may have even used them to bolster up his own opinions on what he believed as the truth and perhaps gave him reassurence that he’s done right by telling the Pope to go do one. I sort of get the impression somehow, that towards the end of his life he was starting to doubt if he had done the right thing.
Totally agree Olga If Henry had made his mind up that K.P had to go 1 he would already have been playing the field and making a beeline for one Lady in particular, sending gifts etc to her and 2 She wouldn’t have been able to get near him to plead her case.
When K.H’s naughty and wanton behaviour came out he made it clear that he was through with her by arresting her and keeping her away from him, although she managed to escape her guard and run to the Chapel, even if she had managed to get in, he would have simply walked away and not even acknowledged her presence.

Sharon said

Hi Jane and welcome to the forum.
I get all of the wives. The person that I don’t get is Henry.
I admire KOA. It wasn’t only Compaggio who asked Katherine to become a nun. Henry sent many priests and councellors to try and bully her. Compaggio and Wolsey went to see her. She was shocked when both of them told her she should become a nun. Compaggio told her the Pope thought it was the best solution rather than press for a trial. Her final answer to Compaggio and the Pope was that she would “never comply.” She “intended to live and die in the state of matrimony, to which God had called her and that she would always remain of that opinion and that she would never change it.” You rarely hear that today. And that is an awful lot of pressure to bear. She was willing to go up against the Pope of Rome. That may not mean much today, but in her time, to go against the wishes of a King, many Bishops and priests, councellors and a Pope? That took guts.
I think this was a very brave statement to make to the Bishop and the Pope. They were of her faith and yet they were men trying to put asunder what they had said God had joined together. She was having none of it. Quite frankly, it says more about the woman and her strong belief than it does about the faithfulness of the men involved. For the men it was all about politics. For her, it was all about faith and the vows she had taken.
Even if she was using her religion to try to keep her marriage together, you have to admire her tenacity.
I blame Henry for what happened to Mary, not Katherine. He could have let her see her Mother. He could have kept Mary at court. He could have spoken to her. He didn’t. They say he loved Mary very much. I’m not seeing the love here. He didn’t want any reminder of Katherine at court, and Mary would have reminded him of her. Hence, she was banished. He did the same to Elizabeth after Anne’s death.

Sharon I don’t think any of us, “get Henry” In his early years he was an ok likeable sort of guy, but then he turned into a monster. Always suspicious and chopping heads off and just creating mayhem and murder wherever he went.. He was as many other people have pointed out also highly hypocritical of others and then turning around and doing the self same thing himself that he was bitching about. I.e his sister Margaret, when she divorced Archibald Douglas. Henry went up the wall and down the other side at her and basically told her she had broken her vows to God when she pledged herself Archibald for life etc..and yet at the same point in time he was petioning the Pope to annul his marriage with KOA.. I’m not too sure but I think Henry asked the Pope to tell Margaret she was to return to her husband and her marriage or risk excommunication. If true that is one letter I would have loved to have read…
Dear Pope
My sister Margaret wants a divorce. This is all wrong, and I’m hopping mad about it, please tell her to return to her husband and marriage forthwith or else.
By the way I want a divorce right now.. Grant me one or else..
Henry Rex … Fidei Defensor…
What I also don’t get about Henry, is that when he cast his eye on Anne I don’t think his idea was to make his Queen she like all the other woman he’d set his eye upon would be just another notch on his bedpost, so why did he get jealous about Wyatt and Henry Percy and others showing an interest in her and driving them off? If his intentions towards her were purely sexual surely all her other admirers would have mattered to him. He would have had his wicked way with her and just cast her off. Most of his lovers were either married, or married off once he had, had his way with them anyway. So again he was being hypocritical towards marriage/adultery, whilst condemning others for their married mistresses he was trying to get into the knickers of nearly every married woman he could.. I wonder if he ever tried it on with Maria De Salanas or Frances Carceres?
The man was a bloody menace and needed someone to give him a bloody good hiding every so often to teach him some manners and respect. I would almost go as far to say by the way that he treated all his wives he was a mysogynist. He cast KOA out on her backside more or less to fend for herself, without so much as a please, thank you or kiss my backside.. Murdered Anne, all but murdered Jane, tossed AOC aside like a worn out shoe, although to be fair she did get a lot more out of the marriage than just her life, she was reasonably well off. He murdered K.H, and destroyed K.P’s spirit. Mary and Elizabeth were all but ignored and disregarded as being useless by him, although Elizabeth did learn from a very early age the business of self reliance which was all for the good, but then it also had a down side to it too as she wanted nothing to do with marriage and that in turn caused problems when it came to the succession.
Mary on the other hand just became a neurotic self obsessed religious zealot for which the people of England suffered a lot of grief.
Poor Little Edward really didn’t have a chance and whatever he did in his father’s eyes was never good enough. Henry’s paranoia played a good part of Edward’s problems, as H7 became just as paranoid and obsessive toward Henry Junior when Arthur died. Shutting Edward away and dictaing his every move, telling his people what he could and couldn’t do, and then expecting him to be like he was when he was younger. I.e Tall and ruddy in appearence, a brilliant athelic excelling at all sports, a gifted musician, dancer and singer and above all a devoted and brilliant scholar, although I’m given to belive that Edward was clever, not as brilliant as Elizabeth in learning but was able to hold a decent conversation and perhaps make wise decisions even if they weren’t always acted upon.
If I was asked to describe Henry in one word I would say he was an Oxymoron..Basic translation is: a contradiction of a contradiction.

Actually there is also K.P behaviour which I don’t get either. During her first 3 marriages she conducted herself with the decorum and restraint that was expected of woman in those times. Once she married Tom Seymour all those virtues went right out of the window, she became almost a silly in her behaviour as K.H, a giggling girl with no decorum at all. It was as if she had somesort of madness come upon her.Granted some of that could be from the fact that she had finally married for love, but even so holding Elizabeth down whilst he cut up her dress is not something that would normally be expected for someone to do.
In my opinion part of the problems between Elizabeth and Tom were caused indirectly by K.P. Holding Elizabeth down whilst Tom cut up her dress and going with Tom into Elizabeth’s bed chamber some morning gives the impression that K.P was giving Tom permission to try and seduce Elizabeth.
Did K.P seriously think that Tom would behave himself around Elizabeth? Did K.P even know that Tom had asked both Mary and Elizabeth for their hands in marriage and had even approached the council to ask permission to marry Elizabeth after Mary rejected him. When told no it was only then that he married K.P. Surely if K.P had known his intentions towards Elizabeth were dishonourable she would have sent Elizabeth away from the time he married her? Or did she think she could control him and keep Elizabeth safe from harm from him too?
Obvisiously sending Elizabeth away became K.P’s only choice once she found out what Tom had done, I believe he did try to rape Elizabeth and got caught, either by Kat Ashley or by K.P herself but whatever happened Elizabeth was sent away. K.P was devestated to learn that the man she truly loved had betrayed her. I don’t believe Tom loved K.P or anyone come to think about it, the only thing he truly loved was power and getting one upmanship on his brother. Marriage to K.P was a way for him to get onto the council and control King Eddy, when that failed he had no further use for K.P and with Eddy’s health failing fast, he though of the next best thing to get power. Mary was out she was too old to manipulate to his needs and a deeply pious Catholic. Elizabeth however was perfect young, nubile and able to be malnipulated to his way of thinking.
The Seymour Boys in some ways destroyed each other, but I think that right from the start when they first appeared at court their detiny and fate were sealed and they would basically end up killing each other.

That’s assuming that either of KP’s first marriages were lacking in physical passion. Given her first husband was a young man and her second could have learnt how to push a woman’s buttons, both of those marriage may not have been totally passionless. Perhaps KP was trying to regain her youth by means of a vigourous man…

I have to say the wife i just dont get is Anne of Cleves. I was surprised when googling her at one stage that “anne of cleves smells’ came up on the search options. I have much heard the claim that holbein “embellished” a little on her portrait, which im not sure i totally agree with. Holbein had a job with Henry throughout Henrys reign, I dont see how anything Annes family could have given him would have made him paint her prettier than others, and Im not sure whether he would have taken sides with Cromwell on that one either, perhaps he was blackmailed, who knows. I have to say tho, looking at the portraits, i think Annne of Cleves looks the prettiest. Altho it is said that it can be seen on the original that her nose had been originally painted much longer, but then edited out) Henry obviously did not think her attractive tho! So there are a few popular options for this, she smelled, perhaps she was one of those devout christian girls that did not wash themselves down below because it is considered wrong to touch ones self (i have heard many stories from men my age that certain religiuous girls even now obey that unpleasant rule, with smelly and over grown consequences) that she was incredibly unattractive, pock marked, flanders mare like, her body was in “bad order’ henry copped a feel after marriage and found the equipment was not to his standard (hypocrite on three counts!) and that she was older than stated, he found it hard to believe she was a maiden at all. Anyway these are the reasons i have read to explain Henrys lack of potency and hence lack of consumation after their marriage. One cant help but wonder how effective Henrys wedding tackle was tho, he was often frustrated with his wives and mistresses, one cant help but think that maybe erectile disfunction plagued him and not just in his older years, he probably blamed the women, and then got angry as hell with them when they didnt give him sons! (reminds me of the king and I, where the king orders 2 large “male” elephants to breed with each other, as males are stronger!”) Henry left a wake of genetically orientated blunders… The reason I just dont get Anne of Cleves however, or should i say reasons, firstly, was she really sent over to england with no idea how to commit the deed? Was the fact that she lived in a mainly male populated castle the reason she wasnt given the birds and the bees talk before her wedding to H8? Was her english so bad she didnt understand him “You put vhat vere??!!!” was she so frigid and or frightened that she lay there like a cold fish and did not respond to any of Henrys advances in bed? Surely Henry would have been able to teach her a thing or two (which leads to another of my conclusions regarding H8, he was crap in bed and his ego and position meant that no one was ever able to say anything to him about it!) secondly, when he asked for an anullment, obviously she did the smart thing and went along with it, but how did she manage to stay in henrys good books for the rest of his reign? And the sister title? I suppose maybe it was a natural progression, a woman in Henry’s bed that he didnt have sex with, she must be his sister otherwise how could he have been in bed with her and not done it? Somehow she managed to survive a marriage from the most notorious Lady Killer (the true sense of the word) in all of the known world, she walked away unscathed, with a title, albut a made up one, an estate (Hever Castle wasnt it, weird?) and attended Henry’s court a number of times as an honoured guest. What was it that she had, or didnt, innocence? ignorance? floppy boobs and a saggy bum? You would think that Henry would have at least banned her from court or something, even just to save his own face. She got away scott free with honours, unlike any other wife, even Kathryn Parr only narrowly avoided Henrys unpredictable wrath. And Henrys supposed best council lost his head over it, so what was it about Anne of Cleves? I just dont get it….