This is what I think of Anne of Cleves. Anne was not unattractive. Even if her nose was longer than in the portrait it was no longer than Anne Boleyn’s. The idea that she was unattractive, or smelled, is ridiculous to me. Henry was sulking because Anne brushed him off and didn’t recognise him when he was playing his silly game of disguise. He used the fact that she didn’t speak English and was unaccustomed to English ways and fashions to further convince himself she was unattractive.
The man was a massive egomaniac. The things he said about her were disgraceful. The fact that he claimed he was able to have ‘nocturnal emissions’ is laughable at his age. He wasn’t going through puberty, he was almost fifty. His delusional behaviour is further compounded by the fact he thought a beautiful young girl would fall in love with him (KH) and he’d actually be able to manage to have sex with her in the state he was in. He was already having erectile dysfunctions with Anne and it took him eight months to get Jane pregnant. To top it off he was still banging on about having sons with KP or any wife after that.
I don’t believe a word he said about AOC. She suffered a horrible humiliation and I don’t think she was relived to get out of marrying him either, while I would like to think that. Her brother tried to arrange marriage negotiations again for her again with Henry after KH was executed. She was heard to say that KP was not as beautiful as her when she heard Henry was getting married again. I don’t think she ever fully accepted what Henry did to her, but she made the best of it and with good grace.
And how could you? Imagine leaving your home to become Queen of another country, having horrible and humiliating lies spread about you and then being trapped in the same country to live out a charade, alone. Destined for spinsterhood because of a false pre-contract, and having to resign yourself to that so the bastard doesn’t murder you.

Ok I had better stop ranting now

If you look at it with AOC and Henry their marriage was a little like a game of blind date, with horrible consequences. We know that Anne was praised to Henry for being all he dreamed of in a woman, but we don’t know what was said to Anne about Henry I assume it was along similar lines that he was a golden God who was madly in love with her etc.. Again we know that Henry’s reaction to her was one of instant dislike but I suspect her reaction was just the same.
She must have been appauled to learn that this stinking overweight blubber mountain that had waddled into her room and kissed her was to be her husband. However like so many woman of that time she resolved herself to make the best of a bad situation.
When Henry wanted out of the marriage she must have felt like her wish had come true and the fact that Henry had offered her a nice little earner with her divorce deal, showed that he did have some feeling for Anne, he could if had wanted to just chuck her out lock, stock and barrel without so much as a pot to pee in, in much the same way as he did KOA.
A lot of that could have been from fear of retribution from Anne’s brother, but then the same could have happened when he tossed KOA out, with her nephew going balistic on Henry etc, but of course he didn’t but I think a few heated words and threats were exchanged.
As cruel as this might sound I rather think Anne’s brother was glad to be shot of her. I think Anne was fond of her brother but when she came to England as saw how the woman were here, being able to do what, when and how they liked that must have been a real eye opener for her. I kind of get the impression that life in her brother’s court was boring and she had nothing to do all day but sew and read books. The only thing I don’t understand is that why she didn’t send for her sister Amellia to keep her company, but then looking at it she perhaps didn’t want to push her luck where Henry was concerned.
Anne I think showed a great deal of tact and diplomacy when it came to the divorce, and I feel because of her behaviour thoughout it all and her behaviour towards Henry and the respect she gave him afterwards she earned his respect and admiration. I still feel that if he given his marriage a chance that it would have been happy, they may have also produced a a child or 2 as well.

Sharon you could well be right.. I think their divorce was extremely amicable they could have just talked in bed or played cards perhaps.. I don’t know if you have seen the film Carry On Henry but there is a bit in it where Henry is married to a French Lady who puts him off making love to her because she stinks of Garlic, so to get around it in short to get a divorce for non consumation, he plays tiddly winks with her in bed.

I rather think that Henry and Anne understood each other better than anyone else did. I do think they did collabarate with each other to get the divorce to go through as smoothly as possible.
One thing that woman were taught from an early age were the birds and the bees, and it wasn’t uncommon for children to see their siblings born. So they were aware of what you had to do and which bits went where to make a baby.
Anne would have also heard her maids talking about their sex lives too.
I don’t buy into it that she smelled she probably used a perfume that perhaps was a little too scented for Henry’s liking.

I have read that theory before too. I think it may be likely that Anne was a bit prudish, even for Henry, and if it were true that he came disguised to give her a kiss, she was probably shocked at any man being so forward to her. I have heard other theories about Henry and his ‘masks’ and the fact that he was the only one who didnt know that everyone knew who he was behind his mask, and therefore everyone would pretend they didnt know eventhough it was clear, and then when he unmasked, they all pretended to be shocked. Kinda makes me think of a small toddler covering their eyes with their hands and honestly believing they are invisible! Perhaps he tried the same thing with Anne, and she genuinely did not know him, apparently it was a new years celebration or something, and she had not met him yet. But she may have been shocked because she’d never been kissed before and she had come to marry the King of england and she was taught to repel any advances from men, especially if her new husband and his leiges were watching. Perhaps it did bruise Henrys ego, as he would have most likely told everyone who would listen that he planned to kiss her in such spectacular comedic fashion, but even though i think little of Henry and his fickleness, I dont think even he with his ego would forgo an entire relationship and have his head council aka cromwell beheaded simply because his new queen had made him look silly. Then again his actions often shadow those of a small spoilt child. I think the story of the masked kiss was just a short anecdote expressing the relationship between he and anne, which was that she was frigid, uneducated in sex and male female relations in general, that he couldnt consumate, and that he blamed her, citing that she smelled and was physically so unatractive that it prevented him from committing the deed. His ego would have been the source of all the complaints about anne and her horsishness, and as you said, others thought her to be quite pretty. It is a very good example of the fact that he did stupid and childish things, and that his court would pass around rumours and even farbicate stories (or at least embellish them) to cover his fumbling childish tracks. I tthink there are many stories throughout history that shadow this one. Queen Victorias “we are not amused” Marie Antoinettes “let them eat cake” the kind of stories that get carried on because fact can be stranger than fiction, but fiction can become fact. Im not saying the story about him kissing her in mask and her rejecting him is untrue, there seems evidence of that, i just think sometimes stories are carried on because they capture the whole story in a neat little package, and make it easier for people to understand something that otherwise would make little sense.

Tash.. Henry liked the idea of masks etc so that when the lady he was dancing with removed the mask she was to be both suprized and flattered that she was dancing with the King, and from his point of view that he managed to fool her into thinking she was dancing with the common Joe Bloggs person. I think that it was also Henry’s way of finding out what the gossip was about him, but anyone who had been at court long enough would have known that the person behind the mask was Henry, and it would only be someone who had newly joined the court and not yet had chance to meet everyone there yet that would be fooled by this charade.

Think about it if someone was plotting against the King how better to whisper these plans to others than through a masked party. The music would have covered what was being said and if Henry was dancing with one of the plotters he may get to hear what was going on, and who was out to get him..

Henry’s idea to go to Anne in disguise etc was more to flatter his own ego than hers. Like I’ve said in my prior post Anne was praised to heavens about being a ravishing beauty and being every inch a queen, and Anne was most likely told that Henry was a Golden God with the strength, courage and bravery of a lion was was madly in love with her and all because of what he saw in her portrait. So you can imagine her horror when firstly a stranger who looks like a blimp and stinks like an open sewer strides up to her and gives her a kiss, she mearly thought this was one of Henry’s servants who was acting above his station. She was still expected this man who had been described to her to come striding through the door and sweep her off her feet, so from that point of view you can see why Anne acted like she did when she found out that this blimp stinking of a sewer man in front of her was Henry. She must have felt she was in a living nightmare. From Henry’s point of view he was perhaps angry that she didn’t recognise him by his bearing and his courtly graces.
Either way whatever happened between them affected each other possitively and they became good freinds Henry often invited her court and I think she spent the Christmas of 1540 with Henry and K.H and was treated with all the honour and respect due to her.. Good Olde Anne..

Tash Wakefield said

Yes ive often thought that Anne of Cleves would be the only Tudor wife I would get along with, or at least i get the feeling she was an honest to god good person. Everyone else in Henrys court were there for what they could get out of Henry and those in his favour, but this girl came from another land with different rulership and wanted nothing more than what she was offered. I think that’s why she would have got the titles she was given, it was probably refreshing and somewhat shocking to Henry and his court. I am guessing the gossip surrounding her would not have entirely reflected that, but I dont think any of the Tudor gossip was entirely in earnest. It must have been awful to live in Henry’s court, one wrong step or word would either end your life at court of your life altogether, and you wouldnt be able to go anywhere without someone watching and passing it on! It sounds like an awful american highschool! “did you hear that the new Queen looks like a flanders mare! Henry said so himself! She must be so ugly, and ive even heard that he has complained of her ‘foul smell'” courtlife in tudor england somewhat reminds me of day time soapies, the bold and the beheaded!

Actually Tash, Henry never said that AOC was a flanders mare, somebody else said it and because of the situation between AOC and Henry at the time I.e deeply unhappy the flanders mare was atributed to Henry.

Tash Wakefield said

Yes that was exactly what i was trying to imply in my “quote” it was most likely gossip, and attributed to him as many things have been by many people, marie antoinette never said “let them eat cake” victoria never stated “we are not amused”

But Rose said she did in that wonderful documentry series, Dr Who…

LOL ahh finally people who understand….thanks for the laughs guys, its always a blast hanging round here! A blast from the past, but a blast none the less.

Tash Wakefield said

I have a few conspiracy theories about dinosaurs (and everything else, as you may have picked up lol) i think they were dragons, and they were all killled off mostly by early man, then finished off by knights and other noblemen cos they were a menace. Perhaps their flatulence, perhaps they blew fire out both ends, or maybe they didnt breath fire at all, it just felt like they had!

They could well have been, but I bet they didn’t make toast like I can.. (Daughter’s pet name for me is Dragon)
There have been so many theories thrown in to why the Dinosaurs died out, I heard one not long back that the scientists thought it was Flu that killed them off. I don’t suppose we will ever really know.