This has been an interesting discussion. Most outstanding is that every queen had someone who liked. Yet, I did not realize the strong animosity felt towards Jane Seymour. I have a deep seated respect for Anne of Cleaves. She came to a land that was foreign in it’s language and culture. Feared being put to death as her predecessor. It appears she suffered unlimited criticism and ridicule about her looks and hygiene. Humiliated over the failed consummation of her marriage and the final rejection, divorce. Yet from all I have read, she remained humble, kind, non-judgmental, faithful, loyal and steadfast. A consummate Queen. I agree with Boleyn that had Henry only given this marriage a change, he would have found the Queen he searched for and perhaps many male heirs.

Henry was always one for thinking the grass was greener else where and perhaps didn’t see or want to see that it wasn’t.
He also never admitted that he made mistakes he always somehow managed to put the blame on someone else.

I don’t have a least favourite wife. It’s like choosing one of six of your most loved treasurers. You can’t pick a least favourite!
I kid myself that I don’t have a favourite either but that’s a lie. Anne will always be my favourite, but that’s looking at the wives with modern eyes. I admire her. I admire Catherine of Aragon too, but she was a Princess born to her role whereas Anne was forced to establish a persona based on the position she was placed in. She was a creation of her own making, which is what I so admire. Whether she’s loved or hated no one can deny that she was an incredible woman.

Boleyn said

Agreed Duchess. Katherine Parr was very resolute in her opinion towards religion, in fact you could say that she and KOA were passionate about the same things. Personally I would have found her very dull, but all credit and praise to her she was a published Author, an extremely rare thing to happen in those days.
Like you I have trouble coming to grips with her behaviour when she married Tom. I think she was just so wrapped up in love for perhaps the first time in her life, that she was completely blind to Tom’s unseemly behaviour towards Elizabeth.
Did K.P know of Tom’s marriage proposals to both Mary and Elizabeth before he asked her to marry him?

Boleyn,
I’ve never thought of KP as dull, but that is definitly the mythology surrounding her. I recommend reading Susan James’s “Catherine Parr: Henry VIII’s Last Love.” It presents Katherine in a much different light, by challenging the assumptions about her life. She emerges as a woman of great passion, great intellect, and the force behind moulding Elizabeth into the woman she became.
I do agree with you about her relationship with Seymour. It seems she has a weakness for rogues, much like Elizabeth. To me, it seemed she was desperate for love, and thought she found it with Thomas. Sadly, he was a prat and did not deserve her, but she was blind to indescretions.

I was thinking about the six wives, and I finally concluded that I can’t choose my favorite wife. They are very different, we can’t compare Anne Boleyn with Jane Seymour for example.
As regards Thomas Seymour, I think Elizabeth was too virtuous to succomb to him. Katherine Parr considered Elizabeth as her daughter so I think she sent her to Sudley just to protect her.
(I really like this forum, it’s interesting to read the conversations. It helps me to learn more about The Tudors.)

AmandineR Well you will certainly get to know the Tudors here alright. Just when you think you have them all figured out another mystery jumped up and bites you in the backside and throws your theory right out of the window.
I agree about not being able to pick just one wife as a favourite as they all had there merits good or bad.
I think you are right about Elizabeth in a way she knew from a very early age that once a woman succumbed to a man he became the master if that makes sence. But by the same token Thomas wanted power especially over his brother. K.P certainly loved him and that was perhaps her greatest pity as I kind of get the impression if either Mary or Elizabeth had said yes to his proposels he would have dropped K.P like a hot brick.
As I said in my previous posting I feel that Thomas had tried to rape Elizabeth at some point during her time at Sudley, and perhaps may have succeeded, but something happened to stop him, either Kat Ashley chased him out of the bed chamber as she had to do on several occations, when he became too bold, or K.P walked in on them. Elizabeth was an innocent party in all this. Thomas I believe would have done the same things over again if it was Mary living in Sudley, and not Elizabeth.. He was desperate for power, simple as.
I believe back then if a woman was raped it was expected that she would marry the man who had raped her. If Thomas had been able to rape either Elizabeth or Mary they would have had to have married him in order to protect their modesty. Don’t quote me though.
But if you look at it logically the very same thing happened where MQS was concerned, she married Bothwell who she claimed had raped her, and that in order to protect her modesty and her Royal name she had to marry him.

Boleyn I totally agree with you. Thomas Seymour just wanted power. In a certain way I think we can compare him to Thomas Boleyn who used Anne to have a grip on the power and on the King (maybe I am wrong but that’s what I think). All the men close to Henry tried to have more and more power except Thomas More who stayed humble and faithful to his opinions even if it cost him his life. In fact, power drives the men crazy and it still valid nowadays.

AmandineR said

Boleyn I totally agree with you. Thomas Seymour just wanted power. In a certain way I think we can compare him to Thomas Boleyn who used Anne to have a grip on the power and on the King (maybe I am wrong but that’s what I think). All the men close to Henry tried to have more and more power except Thomas More who stayed humble and faithful to his opinions even if it cost him his life. In fact, power drives the men crazy and it still valid nowadays.

I don’t think Thomas Boleyn wanted power. What he had was perhaps good enough for him. He was after all a valued and trusted diplomat, and by the time Anne came to court and caught Henry’s eye, T.B was close to retiring. Of course he couldn’t do that once Anne had caught the eye of the King.
The person who really wanted the control was King was Thomas Howard the Duke of Norfolk, who was T.B brother in law. Certainly Henry did give honours to T.B, but taking Anne out of the equation for a second, T.B had earned them.

Thomas More was unique, he was the only man who could tell Henry the truth about something and get away with it. In a way Thomas More gave us the foundations to what we have now. Freedom of Speech. He was the only man who was offered a job by Henry who agreed to take it on certain conditions. I.e when he was offered the job of Chancellor, he said that he would only take it if Henry kept him right out of the divorce proceedings.

AmandineR said

Of course the Duke of Norfolk! I forgot him! I don’t know much about him but I’ve seen that he was terrible. He used Anne just for his personnal interest. Poor Anne… She definitely didn’t diverse what happened to her. She loved Henry as much as she could. Sometimes I feel very sorry for her but this story with the divorce and all that stuff was so complicated for the time..
Thomas More is a hero in a certain way

I don’t know why but Thomas Howard, makes my flesh crawl. He was a sly coniving twisted obseqious sod. He didn’t care how or who he trample on or destroy as long as he got power. Anne had his number though, she managed to keep him in line.
K.H wasn’t so lucky unfortunatly, her Uncle Thomas was perhaps the closest she’d had for a father in many years, and he ultimetely betrayed her too, like he did all those who outlived their sell by date. If they didn’t bring him what he wanted then he would destroy them.

In a way Mon Ami Thomas Howard was. He was very brutal in the way he did things. He was a complete pig to his wife and used to frequently beat her. At one point he imprisoned her. I really don’t like the man at all. He was a completely cold blooded, ruthless arogant bastard.
I don’t think he ever showed any compassion for anyone or anything.. Although he was supossed to have cried when he sentenced Anne to die I don’t think the tears were for her, more for himself as he had lost a lot of Henry”s favour and really only redeemed it after the riots of the Pilgramage of Grace, but after K.H disgrace and execution there was really no way back again for him. Henry had him back at court, but he was never as close to Henry as he once was. In short Thomas cooked his own goose, and it was only Henry’s death that spared his life.