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10:45 am
October 11, 2009
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The farewell scene in the finale episode made me reconsider what I formerly believed to be a reltionship of adoration toward the father. That cold look of Elizabeth… Her firm voice, her absence of tears and her way to leave without a last look… Is it possible that all the relatonship, love and so on Liz was supposed to have for her father was made up for the sake of her right on the throne and her popularity? Propaganda to make her the true red haired heiress facing rivals? While she kept a respectful cold grudge toward Henry after all, she didn't wore his portrait on her finger, painting as if she was being kissed by her important someone, until her death)
What is your opinion about this?
11:11 am
March 26, 2011
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That's an interesting point Lexy, I've often thought about this. I've often wondered if Elizabeth made herself control her affection for her father as he himself could change so quickly. Perhaps Elizabeth new that she could be his favourite child one minute and virtually unacknowledged the next. She probably loved her father, but kept her distance so as to avoid disappointment.
Also I'm sure Elizabeth would have often considered what her father did to her mother, and I imagine this must have been quite frightening, at least it would have made it difficult to develop a relationship which involved trust, it surely would have made it difficult for Elizabeth to see Henry as someone who would always protect her.
This could have even influenced her behaviour as a grown woman. She may have found it easier to be independent and unmarried as she had never relied on a man before in her life. She didn't rely on a father to always protect and support her, and her father had not protected her mother, so instead she thought it sensible to rely on herself rather than a husband.
11:14 am
June 7, 2010
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Elizabeth was a brillant politician and knew the positive nature of using her father's image and people's nostalgia for “Bluff King Hal.” It was in her best interests to show herself as Henry's daughter, the Lion's Cub. Feelings of animosity and hatred for Anne were still real by 1558, and Elizabeth (along with her own council) were aware of the constant threats to her throne. Being Anne's daughter put her in a precarious position, so it was best to ignore her mother, and play up the angle as Henry's daughter.
Elizabeth used her father's image publically because it was good propaganda, but she was more private about her memories of her mother. I feel her ring (and her treatment of her Boleyn relatives) were more personal and touching. Anne was still a persona non grata, and it did no one any good to bring her memory publically. So, Elizabeth did it for her own personal reasons.
After the bloodshed of her sister's reign, and Mary's attempts to re-address her parent's marriage as legitime, Elizabeth was much too political pragmatic for that. Yes, privately she did issue orders to investigate Anne and Henry's marriage, but she let sleeping dogs lie. There was nothing to gain for her role as Queen.
Elizabeth always kept her own council. I can only image how complicated her feelings were for her father. He was a massive figure in her life, yet she was the unwanted child more often than not. She learned the importance of trusting those in your inner cirlce. While Henry was alive, she paid him the ultimate respect. In his death, she used his image as she saw fit.
I've always reflect on the film “Elizabeth: The Golden Age” when I consider Elizabeth's feelings for her father. While the film is fictional, Cate Blanchette's Elizabeth remarkes to Walter Raleigh (while vasciliating on signing Mary's death warrent), “did my father have to murder my mother?” I felt the screenwritier spoke to something here. Elizabeth must have harboured some resentment towards her father, and felt her mother was easy prey for him. Still, he was her father. Yet he took away from Elizabeth the one person she loved, and was truly loved by in return.
I do apologise for this lengthy reply. I hope some sense can be made about what I believe.
"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn
6:58 pm
October 31, 2010
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If I were Elizabeth (and when I look at these questions, I try to look at it from that person's point of view), I would have such conflicting feelings about my father. I think, on one hand, that when Henry wanted to be affectionate, he certainly could and probably was with all of his children. She probably had warm memories of the times when he doted on his children and showed them affection and pride in their accomplishments and abilities.
But I don't think she would ever be able to forget that he murdered her mother or all those years when he wanted nothing to do with her. Or all those years when he jerked her around and used her as a pawn…now you're a princess; now you're not. When Henry died, Elizabeth was 13/14 years old. She was well-educated and highly intelligent. She understood what was going on and probably had more than a little resentment built up by the time Henry died.
Probably she wound up developing a strange respect for her father in the areas where he deserved it, and used his image where she deemed it necessary. But I have no doubt in my mind that the reason why Elizabeth never married was because of Henry and her relationship with him (or lack thereof).
"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"
7:15 pm
August 12, 2009
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Very good points, all! Yes, I believe she had a dutiful love for her father and perhaps a sometimes guilty or furtive love for her mother. Her claim to the throne was through Henry, so yes, she always reminded courtiers and ambassadors alike that she was the lion's cub. But her feelings toward her mother showed in the ring, the promotion of her Boleyn relatives, etc. And she was politically savvy enough not to publicly open the can of worms that was her father's marriages and their legitimacies or lack thereof. And I believe wholeheartedly that she learned from the examples of her father's marriages and her sister's as well that it was dangerous for someone of high rank to put yourself under the authority of a husband. She sacrificed a lot to keep her throne and her country safe, and I admire and respect her so much for that wonderful example of a liberated woman.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
7:17 pm
March 9, 2011
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MegC said:
If I were Elizabeth (and when I look at these questions, I try to look at it from that person's point of view), I would have such conflicting feelings about my father. I think, on one hand, that when Henry wanted to be affectionate, he certainly could and probably was with all of his children. She probably had warm memories of the times when he doted on his children and showed them affection and pride in their accomplishments and abilities.
But I don't think she would ever be able to forget that he murdered her mother or all those years when he wanted nothing to do with her. Or all those years when he jerked her around and used her as a pawn…now you're a princess; now you're not. When Henry died, Elizabeth was 13/14 years old. She was well-educated and highly intelligent. She understood what was going on and probably had more than a little resentment built up by the time Henry died.
Probably she wound up developing a strange respect for her father in the areas where he deserved it, and used his image where she deemed it necessary. But I have no doubt in my mind that the reason why Elizabeth never married was because of Henry and her relationship with him (or lack thereof).
Royal or no, no child wants to feel unloved by a parent. I believe Elizabeth wanted Henry's love, but I also believe she knew she could not have it. Unlike Anne, she didn't throw tantrums. She simply withdrew. I've known “throwaway children” and the loss of an actual family unit is a devastating blow to these kids even when they grown up. I imagine every victory Elizabeth won, every precedent she set as Queen of England, was as much to spit in Henry's eye as it was for her own glory.
Since Henry could not truly love and welcome Elizabeth in his life, the least he could have done was spare the Boleyns so she'd have some family. In the end, Henry was all Elizabeth had and he repeatedly neglected her and rejected her. *grinds teeth* I loathe that man.
12:37 pm
December 5, 2009
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Anne was a highly intelligent, gifted courtier. But I think to a large extent she was ruled by her passions. I think she did come to love Henry, and she became possessive and jealous with him, which added to her natural feisty personality. She let her heart rule her head in a way her daughter never did. Elizabeth learned from her mother's mistakes.
When Henry died the masses saw the great King Hal through rose tinted classes. It certainly wouldn't have been in Elizabeth's best interests to reject his memory. Her best bet as monarch was to hold herself out in Henry's image. What she really felt about him is any body's guess, but she probably admired him as a dominant monarch. Elizabeth was a political animal in a way her hot headed, passionate, tempestuous mother couldn't manage. That's not a criticism of Anne, because in a world where hypocrisy and disloyalty were the order of the day, I think she was a breath of fresh air.
12:47 pm
March 9, 2011
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Louise said:
Anne was a highly intelligent, gifted courtier. But I think to a large extent she was ruled by her passions. I think she did come to love Henry, and she became possessive and jealous with him, which added to her natural feisty personality. She let her heart rule her head in a way her daughter never did. Elizabeth learned from her mother's mistakes.
When Henry died the masses saw the great King Hal through rose tinted classes. It certainly wouldn't have been in Elizabeth's best interests to reject his memory. Her best bet as monarch was to hold herself out in Henry's image. What she really felt about him is any body's guess, but she probably admired him as a dominant monarch. Elizabeth was a political animal in a way her hot headed, passionate, tempestuous mother couldn't manage. That's not a criticism of Anne, because in a world where hypocrisy and disloyalty were the order of the day, I think she was a breath of fresh air.
Anne offered abundant hypocrisy and disloyalty. She maintained a lengthy romantic relationship with a man married to the woman for whom she was employed. The man was also her sister's ex-lover. Then she turned around and demanded fidelity from the same man.
12:58 pm
December 5, 2009
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Anne's ultimate employer was Henry. She remained loyal to her family, friends and husband right up until the end, just as Catherine did. As for hypocrisy, Anne was who she was, and appears never to have pretended an emotion she didn't feel. Quite the contrary.
1:10 pm
February 16, 2009
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La Belle Creole said:
Anne offered abundant hypocrisy and disloyalty. She maintained a lengthy romantic relationship with a man married to the woman for whom she was employed. The man was also her sister's ex-lover. Then she turned around and demanded fidelity from the same man.
I don't see any evidence of hypocrisy or disloyalty on Anne Boleyn's part. I personally believe that Anne loved Henry and Henry loved Anne, that it was a meeting of minds in that they were both passionate people, shared interests and were alike in many ways. They were often described as being “merry” and happy and having passionate rows so I agree with Eric Ives that it was an up-down relationship where “storm followed sunshine, sunshine followed storm”.
Anyway, back to Elizabeth… She spoke very proudly of her father and I don't believe that it was pretence or just for political reasons, I think she was like many daughters who idolize their fathers and I think there is evidence that Henry, when he did see Elizabeth, was very proud of her intelligence and delighted in her precocious nature. The locket ring, the fact that Elizabeth surrounded herself with her Boleyn relatives and her coronation, which drew on the example of her mother's coronation, show that she wanted to remember her mother, but she also loved her father and perhaps she saw him with tinted glasses.
Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn
3:52 pm
April 9, 2011
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Anne offered abundant hypocrisy and disloyalty. She maintained a lengthy romantic relationship with a man married to the woman for whom she was employed. The man was also her sister's ex-lover. Then she turned around and demanded fidelity from the same man.
This is the one thing that always make me want to yell at the screen when watching anything to do with Anne. She knew that Henry was a husband who cheated, it's how she got to the position she was in. To expect him to just stop because he is now with her is very arrogant and very hypocritical. But then the whole court was hypocritical by saying it was alright for the King to sleep around, but not the Queen.
I'm currently watching The Tudors as it airs on TV (in repeats) but I cheated and got my DVDs out to see the final episode and I was shocked to see the coldness Elizabeth showed her father as he said goodbye. I iniitally thought what a bitch, but then thought about the way he treated her and the fact he chose to allow her mother to be killed. I also viewed it as a defence mechanism (and a tad of foreshadowing) to not let emotion take you over, which is what the public persona of Queen Elizabeth I was. A tough woman who keot her private thoughts just that private.
5:37 pm
March 9, 2011
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Claire said:
La Belle Creole said:
Anne offered abundant hypocrisy and disloyalty. She maintained a lengthy romantic relationship with a man married to the woman for whom she was employed. The man was also her sister's ex-lover. Then she turned around and demanded fidelity from the same man.
I don't see any evidence of hypocrisy or disloyalty on Anne Boleyn's part. I personally believe that Anne loved Henry and Henry loved Anne, that it was a meeting of minds in that they were both passionate people, shared interests and were alike in many ways. They were often described as being “merry” and happy and having passionate rows so I agree with Eric Ives that it was an up-down relationship where “storm followed sunshine, sunshine followed storm”.
Anyway, back to Elizabeth… She spoke very proudly of her father and I don't believe that it was pretence or just for political reasons, I think she was like many daughters who idolize their fathers and I think there is evidence that Henry, when he did see Elizabeth, was very proud of her intelligence and delighted in her precocious nature. The locket ring, the fact that Elizabeth surrounded herself with her Boleyn relatives and her coronation, which drew on the example of her mother's coronation, show that she wanted to remember her mother, but she also loved her father and perhaps she saw him with tinted glasses.
I agree Elizabeth was impressed by her father and respected him. She probably loved him, but I'm sure the feelings she had for Henry must have been very ambivalent. I'm sure the Nicole Brown Simpson's children genuinely love their father, but the murky suspicions concerning his unproved involvement with their mother's murder must affect their feelings.
With that said, Elizabeth really did not know Anne, and I'm sure she must have been told both the best and worst of Anne's history. Henry killed Elizabeth's mother and he was, at best, a half-hearted parent to her. I wonder if Elizabeth lived in fear her father might execute her one day.
5:38 pm
June 7, 2010
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Bill1978 said:
I'm currently watching The Tudors as it airs on TV (in repeats) but I cheated and got my DVDs out to see the final episode and I was shocked to see the coldness Elizabeth showed her father as he said goodbye. I iniitally thought what a bitch, but then thought about the way he treated her and the fact he chose to allow her mother to be killed. I also viewed it as a defence mechanism (and a tad of foreshadowing) to not let emotion take you over, which is what the public persona of Queen Elizabeth I was. A tough woman who keot her private thoughts just that private.
I agree with you Bill. I like the forshadowing of what an adult Elizabeth was like: a woman who kept her own council and tried greatly to never be ruled by her heart. I feel this behaviour came from seeing what her mother and women did for love. It was a defense mechanism so she could avoid the pitfalls of being an emotional person.
Since I consider myself to be an emotional person, I wish I had Elizabeth's steely resolve to separte my heart from my head. But, alas no. I guess I am more in line with Anne Boleyn than her daughter (not that it's a bad thing)!
"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn
5:41 pm
March 9, 2011
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Bill1978 said:
Anne offered abundant hypocrisy and disloyalty. She maintained a lengthy romantic relationship with a man married to the woman for whom she was employed. The man was also her sister's ex-lover. Then she turned around and demanded fidelity from the same man.
This is the one thing that always make me want to yell at the screen when watching anything to do with Anne. She knew that Henry was a husband who cheated, it's how she got to the position she was in. To expect him to just stop because he is now with her is very arrogant and very hypocritical. But then the whole court was hypocritical by saying it was alright for the King to sleep around, but not the Queen.
I'm currently watching The Tudors as it airs on TV (in repeats) but I cheated and got my DVDs out to see the final episode and I was shocked to see the coldness Elizabeth showed her father as he said goodbye. I iniitally thought what a bitch, but then thought about the way he treated her and the fact he chose to allow her mother to be killed. I also viewed it as a defence mechanism (and a tad of foreshadowing) to not let emotion take you over, which is what the public persona of Queen Elizabeth I was. A tough woman who keot her private thoughts just that private.
I've always been confused by Anne's resentment of Henry's philandering. I mean, she KNEW he was a philanderer. I think her anger was actually a cover-up for fear. Anne knew her position was precarious and the loss of Henry's love and goodwill might drastically affect her fortunes. If she'd delivered a son, she might have been more tolerant of his indiscretions.
5:45 pm
March 9, 2011
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Louise said:
Anne's ultimate employer was Henry. She remained loyal to her family, friends and husband right up until the end, just as Catherine did. As for hypocrisy, Anne was who she was, and appears never to have pretended an emotion she didn't feel. Quite the contrary.
I don't agree. Sorry. I doubt Anne's behavior towards the Queen and Princess Mary remained consistent throughout their aquaintance.
Anne may have been employed BY Henry, but she was employed FOR Katherine of Aragon. Ladies-in-waiting attend queens, not kings.
6:07 pm
November 18, 2010
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La Belle Creole said:
Bill1978 said:
Anne offered abundant hypocrisy and disloyalty. She maintained a lengthy romantic relationship with a man married to the woman for whom she was employed. The man was also her sister's ex-lover. Then she turned around and demanded fidelity from the same man.
This is the one thing that always make me want to yell at the screen when watching anything to do with Anne. She knew that Henry was a husband who cheated, it's how she got to the position she was in. To expect him to just stop because he is now with her is very arrogant and very hypocritical. But then the whole court was hypocritical by saying it was alright for the King to sleep around, but not the Queen.
I've always been confused by Anne's resentment of Henry's philandering. I mean, she KNEW he was a philanderer. I think her anger was actually a cover-up for fear. Anne knew her position was precarious and the loss of Henry's love and goodwill might drastically affect her fortunes. If she'd delivered a son, she might have been more tolerant of his indiscretions.
Fear?? Possibly but definately disillusionment.
Here was a man who had spent 6 years trying to win her, and far as we know, had been faithful to her for that time…and now he's off skirt-chasing as soon as she was pregnant.
She may have thought he had changed his spots because of thier love but to discover he was still a player would have wounded her deeply.
It's always bunnies.
6:27 pm
November 18, 2010
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La Belle Creole said:
Louise said:
Anne's ultimate employer was Henry. She remained loyal to her family, friends and husband right up until the end, just as Catherine did. As for hypocrisy, Anne was who she was, and appears never to have pretended an emotion she didn't feel. Quite the contrary.
I don't agree. Sorry. I doubt Anne's behavior towards the Queen and Princess Mary remained consistent throughout their aquaintance.
Anne may have been employed BY Henry, but she was employed FOR Katherine of Aragon. Ladies-in-waiting attend queens, not kings.
In the days when Anne was merely another lady-in-waiting, Katherine was supposed to be easy to attend for young pretty ladies since she spent a lot of time at her devotations and the younger women had leisure time. Mary if she was at court would have been aware of Mistress Boleyn as just another of her mother's women,noteable only for her ability at French.
Once Henry had made a move towards her, Katherine still treated Anne kindly since I believe Katherine saw Anne as another diverison.
It wasn't until Henry decided that he wanted to marry Anne that the battle-lines were drawn. Henry treated Katherine and Mary badly in order to get his way.In this, he was followed by the Boleyn faction and other court members.
Anne for her part possibly looked up to and admired Katherine when she arrived at court. As the oppotunity to be queen started to unfold, she followed Henry in acting badly to Katherine and her faction.
Once Anne became queen, she appears to have modelled her household along the lines of both Katherine and Claude of France, notable pious ladies.
Anne's own faith seems to have been as deep as Katherine's but she doesn't appear to have gone in for the mortification of the flesh as Katherine did.
It's always bunnies.
6:48 pm
March 9, 2011
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Anyanka said:
La Belle Creole said:
Bill1978 said:
Anne offered abundant hypocrisy and disloyalty. She maintained a lengthy romantic relationship with a man married to the woman for whom she was employed. The man was also her sister's ex-lover. Then she turned around and demanded fidelity from the same man.
This is the one thing that always make me want to yell at the screen when watching anything to do with Anne. She knew that Henry was a husband who cheated, it's how she got to the position she was in. To expect him to just stop because he is now with her is very arrogant and very hypocritical. But then the whole court was hypocritical by saying it was alright for the King to sleep around, but not the Queen.
I've always been confused by Anne's resentment of Henry's philandering. I mean, she KNEW he was a philanderer. I think her anger was actually a cover-up for fear. Anne knew her position was precarious and the loss of Henry's love and goodwill might drastically affect her fortunes. If she'd delivered a son, she might have been more tolerant of his indiscretions.
Fear?? Possibly but definately disillusionment.
Here was a man who had spent 6 years trying to win her, and far as we know, had been faithful to her for that time…and now he's off skirt-chasing as soon as she was pregnant.She may have thought he had changed his spots because of thier love but to discover he was still a player would have wounded her deeply.
I think Anne was afraid because she was an intelligent woman. Anybody living closely or working closely to Henry at this stage of his life should have feared him.
Some psychologists regard fear as a secondary emotion, that is, a response to other (primary feelings.) People can become angry after they've been scared, or hurt. I think Anne loved Henry and was hurt and humiliated by his perfidy, but I think she was also frightened. She'd ridden the path beside him, watched him cast off old friends, loyal ministers, and his own devoted family. All these individuals had been Henry's favorites at one time or other.
Anne was an experienced courtier; her own sister had been Francis I's mistress and Henry's mistress. I'm sure Henry did a great job convincing her she was his one true love, but I don't see how she expected his eternal fidelity when he'd catted around on Katherine for years.
I really think Henry's infidelities terrified Anne because they confirmed her hold on him was slipping. His interest in her was waning. Even if Anne had obliged him with a prince, he still would have catted around, she still would have loathed it, but she might have been less angry because she didn't need to fear his loss of interest.
Please don't get me wrong; she had every right to be disgusted. She had every reason to be frightened. But the open displays of reproach didn't do her or her family any good.
8:04 pm
October 31, 2010
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La Belle Creole said:
Anyanka said:
La Belle Creole said:
Bill1978 said:
Anne offered abundant hypocrisy and disloyalty. She maintained a lengthy romantic relationship with a man married to the woman for whom she was employed. The man was also her sister's ex-lover. Then she turned around and demanded fidelity from the same man.
This is the one thing that always make me want to yell at the screen when watching anything to do with Anne. She knew that Henry was a husband who cheated, it's how she got to the position she was in. To expect him to just stop because he is now with her is very arrogant and very hypocritical. But then the whole court was hypocritical by saying it was alright for the King to sleep around, but not the Queen.
I've always been confused by Anne's resentment of Henry's philandering. I mean, she KNEW he was a philanderer. I think her anger was actually a cover-up for fear. Anne knew her position was precarious and the loss of Henry's love and goodwill might drastically affect her fortunes. If she'd delivered a son, she might have been more tolerant of his indiscretions.
Fear?? Possibly but definately disillusionment.
Here was a man who had spent 6 years trying to win her, and far as we know, had been faithful to her for that time…and now he's off skirt-chasing as soon as she was pregnant.
She may have thought he had changed his spots because of thier love but to discover he was still a player would have wounded her deeply.
I think Anne was afraid because she was an intelligent woman. Anybody living closely or working closely to Henry at this stage of his life should have feared him.
Some psychologists regard fear as a secondary emotion, that is, a response to other (primary feelings.) People can become angry after they've been scared, or hurt. I think Anne loved Henry and was hurt and humiliated by his perfidy, but I think she was also frightened. She'd ridden the path beside him, watched him cast off old friends, loyal ministers, and his own devoted family. All these individuals had been Henry's favorites at one time or other.
Anne was an experienced courtier; her own sister had been Francis I's mistress and Henry's mistress. I'm sure Henry did a great job convincing her she was his one true love, but I don't see how she expected his eternal fidelity when he'd catted around on Katherine for years.
I really think Henry's infidelities terrified Anne because they confirmed her hold on him was slipping. His interest in her was waning. Even if Anne had obliged him with a prince, he still would have catted around, she still would have loathed it, but she might have been less angry because she didn't need to fear his loss of interest.
Please don't get me wrong; she had every right to be disgusted. She had every reason to be frightened. But the open displays of reproach didn't do her or her family any good.
I agree with you on this one for the most part. I think Anne was freakin' terrified for one reason or another. I think before she and Henry were married, she was terrified constantly of losing his interest. After they were married, she was terrified she wouldn't deliver a son. Then, after Elizabeth was born, she was terrified she wouldn't be able to produce a male heir at all or she'd miscarry. She probably lived in an almost constant state of fear and worry for close to 10 years. If that was my life, I'd be short-tempered, too. How stressful! While her behavior towards Mary and KoA didn't necessarily win her any supporters, I don't know that Anne really cared who DIDN'T like her as long as Henry loved her. I think, with his love and support, she felt invincible–right or wrong though it may have been. If she could have seen into the future, she probably would have realized how useful it would have been to have had other supporters there at the end.
I think it's probably a blessing that poor Elizabeth didn't wind up entirely screwed up! We know how important having a strong positive male role model is in the lives of teenage girls, especially. Clearly, she was surrounded by some strong, well-balanced people who raised her (because clearly Henry didn't) and shaped the positive aspects of the woman she would ultimately become–despite Henry's treatment of her. There is no possible way she could have escaped that childhood emotionally unscathed (but, then again, does any teenager escape their adolescent years emotionally unscathed now that I think about it?).
"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"
8:50 pm
November 18, 2010
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MegC said:
I think it's probably a blessing that poor Elizabeth didn't wind up entirely screwed up! We know how important having a strong positive male role model is in the lives of teenage girls, especially. Clearly, she was surrounded by some strong, well-balanced people who raised her (because clearly Henry didn't) and shaped the positive aspects of the woman she would ultimately become–despite Henry's treatment of her. There is no possible way she could have escaped that childhood emotionally unscathed (but, then again, does any teenager escape their adolescent years emotionally unscathed now that I think about it?).
Probably not.My parents divorced when I was 7 . Then I had Step-mother 1 for a few years , several GF's of DF….then SM2…somehow…the GF's lasted though both the 2nd and 3rd marrriages. In fact when DF was on his death-bed at least one of his femmes visited him every day…
I bonded with my maternal Grandfather and an uncle. Though I also had close relationships with my great-uncles and GP's cousins when I was younger . I grew up listening to stories of WWI and WWII, And not the white-washed stuff we got in history lessons either. Wonder where my intereast in military history comes from??
It's always bunnies.
