Hi Claire!

Just saw the finale for a second time.

1. Plot against Catherine Parr (oops!) — That was mean of Henry, deciding to not cancel the arrest and then bawling out Wriothesley for daring to arrest Catherine, thus making her think that Wriothesley was her enemy. And Henry did have a weird glitter in his eye as he dressed down Wriothesley, I think.

2. Charles Brandon — I liked his talk with Edward Seymour: it seems to show that Charles is a medieval knight born a couple of generations too late. But then Charles came from humble origins: how could he have risen to a dukedom under the Plantagenets? I felt very sorry for poor Brigitte at the vigil when the Duchess of Suffolk (Katherine Willoughby, right?) came in. When the Duchess treated Brigitte as if Brigitte had never existed (apparently, Brigitte is a fictional character, after all), everybody else (including the Duke and Duchess's son, who had previously been friendly to Brigiitte; and including the servants, who had been loyal to Brigitte) treated Brigitte as if she was not there. That's what you get for being a mistress, not a wife, I guess

3. The Queens — I wish there had been more and/or longer scenes with the ghost-Queens. Would have been nice if Catherine Howard had come along to haunt Henry as well, but the Queens who haunted Henry were the mothers of his children.

4. Henry's farewell — I thought it interesting that Elizabeth wasn't crying, while Catherine Parr and Mary were. Did you notice that at the end of the scene she goes away, leaving Catherine and Mary to console each other (yet they seem reluctant to do so — religious differences again?)?

5. Gardiner's comeuppance — I liked it! Did Anne Stanhope really have that kind of nerve? And did Edward Seymour really belt Gardiner during a Privy Council meeting? Admittedly, the historiography of The Tudors (insofar as it is historically accurate) seems to be fairly conventional. On second thought, I feel kind of sorry for Gardiner: did he really embezzle monasteries in Cornwall? Nice to know that he was a man of confidence during Mary's reign. (Thanks, Wikipedia!)

Assorted thoughts:

I did not like JRM's old man voice duriing the last two episodes: seemed as if he was trying too hard to sound elderly.

Would have liked in the epilogue to describe briefly what happened to the supporting characters (e.g., Gardiner, Wriothesley, Edward and Thomas Seymour, Cardinal Pole, Cranmer, et al), as well as Anne of Cleves and Catherine Parr. Ah well: that's what Wikipedia is for, because I didn't know before now what happened to Gardiner and Wriothesley

And though Elizabeth I's reign is often described as the Golden Age, remember that there were Catholic priests and laity killed under her reign: I have heard Catholic apologists call Elizabeth “Bloody Bess”. I would have liked to see an acknowlegement that Mary's reign was not just turbulently killing Protestants, and Elizabeth's not just glorious and good.

1) I thought Joely Richardson played Catherine Parr as I imagined here: intelligent, passionate, and kind. I've always felt Catherine Parr was overshadowed by Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. Yet, Catherine Parr did so much for Henry and his children. So could have been bitter by being denied a marriage to Thomas Seymour after Lord Latimer's death, but she took the position of Queen and Mother with a respect and graciousness that should be admired. Catherine Parr's ability to outwit Henry and Gardiner, among others, was one of the best scenes of season 4. Catherine Parr used “the weakness of her sex” to convince Henry she “needed to learn from him.” I only wish I had that much courage in the face of adversity.

2) I was sad to see Brandon go, even if he got on my nerves more that once. As Gentillylace noted, Brandon was from a difference time, and his response to Edward Seymour's questions reflected that. Henry calling Brandon to court spoke to Henry's ego and lack of remorse for other people's plight. But Brandon, always a soldier, went when his master called. I admit, you got to respect him for making an appereance.

3) Having Catherine, Anne, and Jane back was, for me, the highlight of the episode. While I wish the time they were on screen was longer, the wives got their points across, and left Henry with much to ponder, and perhaps regret (although I doubt Henry would fully understand any of these emotions). I liked how the three wives came back to see their children. The love of a mother never dies. While I loved Catherine and Anne, I loved Jane's apperance most. Now, I am no fan of Jane Seymour, but her chiding Henry was pure bliss. She told him what he needed to hear. The real Jane Seymour came through; a woman of intelligence and courage, no wallflower there. 

I don't know what were gonna do now its all over *sob!*

But yeah, I found the final far more haunting and emotional than I thought I would, down in large part to JRM's excellent acting, even if the old man voice was more than a little irritating!  I found the scene where Henry was trying to cure Charles strangely affecting and I wonder if it wasn't an attempt by the makers to portray just how delusional Henry had become in his whole God complex.  Charles' death certainly had me choked up though.  

The return of the wives with their children was wonderful if far too short!  It was nice they got to say their piece and i hope henry suffered similar pangs of conscience in real life!  It would've been nice though if they showed something with Katherine Howard and maybe an appearance by Anne of Cleves or something but, oh well

A couple of things I found strange – Mary clinging to Catherine Parr for comfort when told they wouldn't be spending Christmas with Henry when only a few scenes before Mary had practically been gloating with Gardiner over Catherine's imminent fall.  It just didn't gel somehow.  And the scene with Holbein – an old and decrepit Henry telling a man who's clearly only in his mid thirties or so that he remembers Holbein painting his (Henry's) father and how terrible it was.  Timewise it makes no sense whatsoever!  Also Holbein by this point was actually dead himself…

Having said that, the lingering image of that iconic portrait with the little bird fluttering through the hall was a neat piece of symbolism to end on.

1- I cannot feel sympathy for Wriothesley. He betrayed just about everyone he ever got close too (in reality)

2- This fictional Charles Brandon was an utterly loathesome character, but even I wept over his death scenes. So moving!

3- The return of the Queens was something I was dreading anyway. But it wasn't so bad. It was great to see Anne Boleyn again.

4- Henry's farewell was a bit flat. He just sort of waddled off screen, never to be seen again. Sorry, but that weird dream where Henry appears young? That “death” figure on horseback reminded me of Tim Burton's character, Jack Skellington.

5 – I hated the portrayal of the Seymours' in general. Showing the mild-mannered Edward Seymour involved in brutal acts of torture was a pointless slur. Plus the actor is a bit wooden, but to compensate, he is relatively good looking.
Anne Stanhope's portrayal has been equally fictional. She was not a bed hopping, harlot.
BUT- her reaction to the arrest warrant was pure class!!  Edward Seymour also compensated by thumping Gardiner and calling him a “puffed up, porkling of the Pope's”. Again, pure class. I just wish it really happened!

A note on the dream sequence. I have had the whole thing ruined by embittered Katherine of Aragon supporters. I have seen a few discussion boards where KoA supporters are complaining bitterly, first because Natalie Dormer appears in the opening credits before KoA, and secondly because her gohstly reapperance lasts for 50 seconds (time it!) longer than KoA's! Seriously!

More than that, they are getting seriously offended, and posting long and detailed rants all over the internet about it!

Sabrina said:it wasn't like they wrote this from fact…

OK, that's the funniest post I've read all day! Even funnier that it is, unfortunately, true. Yes, I know you were referring to the spirits of wives past, but your statement could be true for the whole series as well.

I loved the finale.

The dressing down of Wriothesely was priceless.  The look Catherine gave Henry after that seemed to show that she didn't like Henry all that much.  At least that's the way I took it.  Catherine did the only thing that she could have done in her situation.  Had she given Henry her true feelings at that moment, she would have been arrested the next day by Wriothesely and more than likely beheaded.  Instead she outlived him and married the man she truly loved.  Her book was also published. (Lamentations of a Sinner) If she had lost her head, I doubt very much that would have happened.

Gardiner-very happy to see him tossed out of court.  Sabrina, I'm with you.  I wanted to hit him with that bible he carried.  And kudos to the Seymours for their treatment of Gardiner.  I wasn't crazy about the way Anne Stanhope was being portrayed, but she was redeemed in the last two episodes. 

Charles-This man was Henry's childhood playmate.  They had been together all of their lives and Charles was loyal to a fault. Even when he was dying, he answered the King's call.  When Henry tried to save him by placing his hands on Charles, I believe Henry thought he could actually cure him.  Kings were said to have the power to heal, and they truly believed they had it.  It was such a sad scene.  He was trying to save his only friend.  God complex? No doubt about it.  But not the first time this complex shows up with Henry.  Charles' death was a tear- jerker.  The missing Duchess finally showed up.  Poor Brigitte.  In France she would have been grieving right beside the Duchess.

The scenes with the Wives-This was perfect.  Katherine never giving up even in death her right to be Henry's wife.  He didn't seem too happy when she said she was right all along.  Anne-so very proud of her daughter.  Henry seeing Anne in Elizabeth.  Henry not wanting Anne to go.  And Jane-finally showing some moxy.  I really enjoyed her scene. 

Elizabeth-walking away after Dad told them he was sending them to Greenwich.  If she was upset knowing he was dying, she certainly was not going to show it in front of the rest of the court.  Or was she angry?  I wasn't sure.

I thought the end was brilliant.  Im so glad they didn't have Henry in bed dying.  I liked that the Horseman came for him with sword in hand.

I didn't have a problem with Henry's voice.  JRM was portraying a very large, very sick man.  When my uncle was ill at the end of his life, he was huge and very ill like Henry.  His voice did change because of his weight and his inability to breath correctly.  I thought it was a nice touch by JRM.

I was just reading the comments about some fans on other boards arguing over screen time between Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn, and half of me is LMAO while another part of me isn't surprised. Claire — you're right. Some people have no lives, and while I've been studying the Tudors for years and have been a fan of the series since it started, I know how to draw the line between what is my own life and what is “fiction”. But others get into things so deeply that it no longer becomes a study to them, or a hobby, or an interest or a movie/TV series to savor and enjoy, or something fascinating to read, but something that begins to eat at them so deep that it fills the emptiness they believe they have. And that's very sad.

I've been a member of another fandom for about ten years or so (I'll keep it nameless), and I have never seen so much flaming, backstabbing, forming of cliques and out and out name calling in my life, to the point that many have dropped out of it because — instead of having fun and enjoying chats about a subject we all love and share — they have been hurt and driven away on some levels. Not all of the groups in the fandom are that way, but some are eaten up with it to where you wonder if they have lost all sense of reality. It is what I love about your group Claire — from the moment I joined, I've felt very welcomed and have enjoyed the fellowship with all of you; even when we disagree on something, we are polite and mature, and that makes you want to support the group as much as you can!

Anyway, I'm still LOL about the Team Katherine of Aragon, Team Anne (and I guess Team Jane too). I know they're not saying that (I guess they're not) but you feel like it is! It almost goes back to what I've said about Philippa Gregory and her seeming hatred for a woman who has been dead since 1536! IT'S OVER! IT'S PAST! We're talking real people and real history. Get over it and get a life. And if anybody's got a right to complain about screen time for Dead Queens, it's Catherine Howard! She didn't get any!

Anne — I enjoyed your comments and they've helped me in trying to form my own thoughts regarding my feelings towards the final season and the final episodes. I may be rambling for a while with all of this, but let me try to start and not in any particular order.

– I not only enjoyed Joely Richardson's Katherine Parr,but (as you did Anne), I was so happy that finally we were seeing Katherine as I imagine she would have been at the time of her marriage to Henry. Rosalie Crutchley who played opposite Keith Michell — I'm sorry…too old and dour and not at all attractive; I don't remember her smiling once. The woman who was Charles Laughton's Katherine was in the movie less than 5 minutes and did nothing but complain about Henry's overindulgence. I can't even remember the others. So Ms. Richardson was a breath of fresh air, and was so much as I've imagined Katherine, that I liked her from the moment she appeared in a scene. She is attractive and charming, with a beautiful smile (my favorite Katherine portrait is the one we once thought was Jane Grey); revealing her intelligence and education and proving a real Queen. After two disastrous marriages, she tells Henry she still believes that love is possible. You see the fear and reconciliation of her fate when she is given the King's proposal…and I loved that finally, we see Katherine not just as wife, but loving stepmother with a strong faith in the New Learning. I admit — I cringed when I heard her debate with Henry, not because I necessarily disagreed with what she was saying, but out of concern for the character. You catch that suspicious glint in Henry's eyes after she presents him with her translation, dedicated to the old SOB, but he picks out a few things he's possibly not happy with, conveniently forgetting that Katherine has declared him her inspiration and a Moses to his people. The moment when she reads the warrant — I knew how it would end but Ms. Richardson plays it so well, that I was still afraid for her. When she appears before him, like  Esther before Xerxes, she's literally pleading for her life without letting Henry know that she knows what he had in mind, so to some on other boards who say she copped out — hell, she played a fantastic chess game; her Queen wasn't captured and the other pieces around her were the ones that were defeated. My only regret is that Katherine didn't have a longer and happier life, but that's another story for another day. I'm just thankful to finally see a more realistic Katherine Parr.

– A few years ago, I read a book only about the final years of Henry's reign. What he did to not only Katherine, but Gardiner and Wriothesely seems similar to some little “games” he played with others, including Archbishop Cranmer and Cardinal Wolsey, seeming to take them to the edge of doom — and then changing his mind OR letting them dangle into their destruction. It's cruel, it's ugly, it's vindictive and typical of a tyrant. To see Katherine afraid again, after she thought everything was all right, and then Henry playing saviour and knight in shining armor, coming to his wife's rescue….This is the kind of thing that makes me hate him. And yes, I saw that look in his eyes when that hateful little Wriothesely went scurrying away. I don't know, was it “See…I've still got it!” As for Gardiner (who I remember was a descendant of Jasper Tudor, Henry's great uncle) — watching him squirm was one of my favorite moments. (Hard to believe that Simon Ward once played a young Winston Churchill LOL). And it might not be historical, but as much as I've disliked Edward Seymour, having him punch Gardiner out was another great moment!

– I have never been a fan of the historic (or fictional) Anne Stanhope, although I knew that at one time, she was a member of Katherine's circle devoted to the New Learning. I just remember the massive disagreements after Henry's death, when Anne thought herself first woman in the kingdom and demanded the royal jewels from Katherine, the Queen-Dowager. She always historically struck me as an arrogant, overly ambitious…okay I'll say it “she-wolf.” And of course we've seen her jumping from one bed to another (and sleeping with her brother-in-law) in the series (but this whole series had that LOL) — not sure that was the real Anne. But seeing her show sympathy for Anne Askew surprised me (I'd already seen on Wikipedia that gunpowder was placed around Askew's neck so her suffering would quickly end, so working in a storyline with Stanhope showed a side of her I didn't expect). So what did I think of the scene between Anne Stanhope and Gardiner — I LMAO! She gave the charges a look, played her cards, and walked out of there triumphant! All I could say was “You go girl!” LOL (And she's a survivor — she lived to be 90, dying in 1587). The look on Gardiner's face was priceless!

– I have been such a fan of Sarah Bolger's acting, and while we start to see Mary becoming the Mary we know in history — determined to stamp out the Reformation and return England to the Church in Rome. She is resolute when she tells Chapuys she will burn as many heretics as necessary. She (sadly) seemed almost ecstatic at the possible downfall of her latest stepmother, a woman she once called a friend and who has shown her nothing but love. It was an ugly side of Mary that I didn't like, but realized all of , this was a preface to her sad future. But kudos to Ms. Bolger for giving us a three-dimensional Mary. (Do you all think she could have continued to play Mary up and through her reign or would they have needed to cast an older actress? One that usually looks like some hunchbacked unsympathetic old drone constantly fingering her Rosary. I've yet to see a portrayal of Older Mary that didn't make me cringe).

– Henry's farewell to Katherine and his children: for not the first time, I could see Henry looking at Elizabeth and seeing her mother, and wishing/wanting to be a better father to the girl (too late). As for her reaction to her father's eminent departure, and not participating in the “group hug” — I think, as she often did, she wanted to keep her own counsel, not wanting anyone to see her cry if she did. (Although in reality, when Elizabeth and Edward were told that there father was dead, both children were said to have wept almost hysterically until Elizabeth remembered her place as older sister and then saluted her brother as her King). I know Elizabeth loved Katherine, but it was weird seeing Mary and Katherine comforting one another when Mary has been nearly conniving with Gardiner and the Catholics at court. Maybe Elizabeth thought it was weird too LOL Anyway, I was glad she just eased away, looking very much the future Virgin Queen.

– As arrogant and proud of his noble race as he is, I sort of (stressing sort of LOL) felt bad for Surrey, but he was playing a dangerous game and with the (equally as ambitious) Seymours on top of it. The actor was WAY too old for the role though: http://www.luminarium.org/renl…..nrybio.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H….._of_Surrey, but I enjoyed his defense to his peers. The way he was to be executed though surprised me since he was a member of the nobility and an ancient family — hung, drawn and quartered? (Wiki says beheaded only). And take a look at that tomb: http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/B…..urrey).htm. I haven't seen a lot of chatter about Surrey — maybe I've missed it. What did you all think of him?

Okay, I've thrown a lot out here and I'm going to stop for now. I still need to respond about Charles Brandon, Henry's final days, and most of all, the Ghost Queens scenes.

Oh LOL 😀 one more little thing. When I first heard that they were going to have cameos by Katherine, Anne and Jane, I half-imagined the “ghost scene” in I, Claudius, when Claudius is in his last days and “sees” the ghosts of Tiberius, Augustus, grandmother Livia and Caligula. Every time I see the last 10 or 15 seconds of the episode openers, especially in Season 4, you glimpse the faces of all the people that have played a major role in Henry's life, going all the way back to the first season. I had to slow it down frame by frame once to try to catch them all: Cromwell, Wolsey, More, Katherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour….Since my idea of Henry's Hell is to be tortured by his victims forever, too bad there couldn't have been some time for all of them to have a cameo.