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9:07 pm
December 7, 2013
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Did she fall, did she jump or was she pushed at her husbands behest?
Would Elizabeth have ever actually married Robert Dudley?
IMO, the doubts about the death served Elizabeth admirably as it gave her the perfect excuse not to marry him and I am sure she would have found some other reason that would have prevented the marriage even if the death had not been suspicious.
What do you think?
3:31 pm
January 3, 2012
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I don’t believe it was murder or suicide, I feel Amy’s death was a tragic accident. She was know to have had a lump in her breast which was causing her great pain, which might have been cancer. If the cancer had spread to her bones one slip might just be enough to break her neck. Although there were a number of injures on Amy’s head which may or may not have been a result of her fall.
Elizabeth had made her mind up from a very early age that she would never marry come hell or high water. That’s not to say she wasn’t tempted, because I’m sure at times she thought “To hell with the people I’m going to marry so and so.. Elizabeth was a lot like her father in some way when it came to courtly love, happy with the thrill of the chase, that to her was more exciting than actually having the the kill if that makes sence.
Elizabeth first and only love was England. So it wouldn’t have mattered if Amy was murdered by a Dudley or a person unknown she would never marry him anyway.
I sure I read somewhere that it has been suggested that Cecil may have had a hand in her death. I don’t think so.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
10:47 pm
November 18, 2010
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I’m with Boleyn in thinking it was an accident.
Elizabeth was far too careful to allow her name being dragged through the mud again. She had suffered as a result of Thomas Seymour’s persuit of her.
And an unmarried Elizabeth was a prise catch for any one who could produce a useful allience for England. Marrying an English no body wasn’t high on her list of potential matches especially given the family history of the Dudley’s.
Although I believe Cecil was capable of removing Dudley by murder…I doubt that killing Amy would have been more than an “Let’s Pretend” exercise.
Death and the Virgin by Chris Skidmore is a good book on the subject if you want to read more about Amy and Robert.
It's always bunnies.
2:18 pm
January 3, 2012
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I agree Anyanka.
The Thomas Seymour affair (loosely worded) very nearly destroyed Elizabeth, and I believe there were still whisperings about it long after she became Queen too. It was even rumoured that she had had a child by him, which was being brought up in the court.. Bah rubbish a pretty story but no more than that.
If anything the Thomas seymour affair simply hammered the point home about her decision when she was 9 after K.H’s fall that she would never marry. A fact she made only too clear when her council pressured her to marry and produce and heir.. She rounded on them and said “If I had been born crested instead of cloven you would never of dared to speak to me thus” and somewhat coarse reference to her sex. But it did have the desired affect and they shut up about marriage and children, for a while at least.
No she wouldn’t have married Robin even if she had wanted to. But on the same note she wouldn’t let him marry either, strange set up but Robin was ok with it, and to be honest he needed Elizabeth a lot more than she needed him, although that doesn’t mean she didn’t love him because I think she did, but not in the true sence of the word. He was just her beloved and true freind, and of course when she died she did feel a lot of greif, naturally.
Robin after all was the son and grandson of a traitor, and he himself had been judged a traitor too in Queen Mary’s terror reign, along with his brothers, and it was only after Philip persuaded Mary to give him money and men to continue his war wih France that he was able to redeem himself sort of. To die in battle would at least be a honourable and respectful death, rather than having your head lopped off as a traitor. In fact his brother Henry did die in battle. I’m not too sure but I believe Henry Dudley was blown apart by a cannon.
As a result of his actions in battle he was brought to the attention of Philip who managed to procure a pardon for Robin in his involvement with the 9 day reign of Queen Jane. But even so I don’t think he wa ever fully trusted by anyone at court and he had many enemies, and his whole safety was reliant on Elizabeth without it I think he would have been murdered.
Little bit of Trivia
It seems at one stage there was a competition going on between the Duke of Norfolk and Robin Dudley. Those who favoured Norfolk wore Yellow ribbons and Those who favoured Dudley wore red ribbons. Basically they spent their time trying to outdo each other in gaining Elizabeth’s favour.
Elizabeth of course enjoyed seeing 2 prize bulls bashing heads together over her.
Norfolk of course felt that Robin was was beneath him socially and treated him with upmost contempt. His motive was that a son and grandson of a traitor should not act above his given station in life.
Norfolk of course quite convientely forgot that his great grandfather, grandfather, and father were all deemed traitors, and his own father had been executed just days before Lard arse kicked the bucket, his grandfather escaped that fate by just hours as lard arse died before he could sign his death warrant, and although he was released from the tower when Queen Mary came to pass he fell out of favour with her and died in disgrace I think.
Anyway this competition got too out of hand and a duel was fought between 2 of the rival factions. it was then that Elizabeth pounced and put a stop to their asinine behaviour. She soundly berated both Robin and Norfolk in front of the whole court, and demanded they pay a substantial fine for their insult. She then banished them for a while to cool their tempers so I believe.
If Cecil had truly wanted to be shot of Robin he would have found a way to do it. Amy’s death was convienant for him and came at the time it was truly needed. Cecil had been telling Elizabeth for months that there was gossip going around about her and Robin, but Elizabeth either didn’t hear or want to hear about it, to her she was just having fun, so Amy’s death was the boot up Elizabeth’s bum she needed, to remove her rose coloured specs and behave with a little more decorum.
Amy’s death although tragic was nothing more than an accident. Yes Amy dismissed her maids and told them to clear off to the fair, but that may have been the desire to have complete peace and quiet. When you are ill the last thing you want is a load of maids giggling around you all the time.
It was said that a few days before she had spent the day in prayer asking God to release her from the pain she was suffering, and the poor love must have been in a great deal of pain. I think that she was going down the stairs to perhaps go to the chapel or to see Mrs Owen or maybe even get a drink or something, and befuddled either by the pain she was in and the posset she had been taking for the pain missed her footing slipped with cause the bones in her neck to snap due to the affects of the cancer.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
12:58 am
November 18, 2010
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Boleyn said
If anything the Thomas seymour affair simply hammered the point home about her decision when she was 9 after K.H’s fall that she would never marry. A fact she made only too clear when her council pressured her to marry and produce and heir.. She rounded on them and said “If I had been born crested instead of cloven you would never of dared to speak to me thus” and somewhat coarse reference to her sex. But it did have the desired affect and they shut up about marriage and children, for a while at least.
ITA..Even if all Elizabeth heard was servant’s gossip, she would have heard of what happened to Catherine of Aragon and her own mother for not producing the desired heir. Jane’s death showed how risky child-birth was even for the most powerful members of society. Anne’s fault of not being as desirable as a teen-aged Kathryn whose death must have brought up many new secrets about Anne herself….And then Katherine Parr’s brush with Henry’s displeasure would be enough to scare any woman off marriage for life. Not to mention all the noble marriages like Mary Howard’s to Elizabeth’s half brother and Catherine Willowby to her own guardian rather than his son as had been exxpected.
Adding to that, her own exposure to the ambicious schemes of Thomas Seymour..what happened to her cousins Lady Jane Grey and Mary of Scotland and her own sister in marrying some-one whose family looked to rule though these women…
Honestly who wouldn’t be concerned that her own happiness was of lesser value that her position and genetic inheritance and that she was expected to take the back seat and act like a queen bee popping out off-spring while her menfolk got to play in the sand-box.
It's always bunnies.
7:14 am
October 28, 2013
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I rather lean towards thinking Amy was murdered.But not by Dudley.I really think Chris Skidmore in his book Death and the Virgin presented a fairly good case for it.In one of his theories he suggests that Amy was murdered by one of Dudley’s well meaning servants.The servant he suggested took it upon himself (without consent or knowledge on Dudley’s part)to act for his master perhaps expecting reward.This seems plausible to me.
On the matter of Elizabeth marrying Dudley, I would like to think that she would have.Perhaps at the beginning of her reign before she found he was already married.It says a lot I think that when Elizabeth recovered from small pox(she was deathly ill) she wrote out a will of sorts that made Dudley Protector of the Realm in the event of her death.
1:40 pm
January 3, 2012
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MrsFiennes said
I rather lean towards thinking Amy was murdered.But not by Dudley.I really think Chris Skidmore in his book Death and the Virgin presented a fairly good case for it.In one of his theories he suggests that Amy was murdered by one of Dudley’s well meaning servants.The servant he suggested took it upon himself (without consent or knowledge on Dudley’s part)to act for his master perhaps expecting reward.This seems plausible to me.
On the matter of Elizabeth marrying Dudley, I would like to think that she would have.Perhaps at the beginning of her reign before she found he was already married.It says a lot I think that when Elizabeth recovered from small pox(she was deathly ill) she wrote out a will of sorts that made Dudley Protector of the Realm in the event of her death.
If it was murder, the servant didn’t do Dudley a favour he damn near destroyed him. Dudley did have many enemies at court though and it was only Elizabeth that protected from them. Elizabeth was a born flirt, in fact I think sometimes she went a little too far with her fancy’s (loosely worded) but equally well she knew her duty to England. If she had chosen to marry she would have chosen someone Princely, not a commoner.
I think she named Dudley as protector purely because in her delerum she wasn’t thinking straight. As much as she loved him, I don’t think she ever really trusted him 100%, and he did do things at times to hack her off. Dudley as protector wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes as the wolves would have ripped him apart before they had even buried Elizabeth. Norfolk would have made sure of that, as I believe he was among one of the senior royal bloods at the time. I’m not sure but I think he had a claim to the throne, with at that time only woman claiments to it, there was a good chance he would have got it too. Yes we all know that MQS was considered the next heir, but would the people of England want a forgien Queen on their throne? The answer is no, the people had enough hassles coping with Philip, but at least he was male. Mary QOS I think would be pushing it a little to far to except.
Dudley would have had his little moment in the sun, but I think Norfolk would soon darken his outlook for him, and Dudley would be sent home with his head in a doggy bag, and England would have had a brand new dynasty after all. The Howard dynasty.. This is only a thought mind you I could be completely wrong.
Just to throw a little spanner in the works. If Mary Scots had borne a daughter or James had died in infancy, what would have happened then. Who would have been considered as Heir for England. I know Catherine Grey had had a boy by then but he was bastardised. but what can be done can be undone so to speak.
But somehow I don’t think a child on the throne would be of much use at this time. I’d go for Norfolk, if Elizabeth had died, of smallpox.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
8:06 pm
February 24, 2010
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Elizabeth always knew that Robert was married. They had known each other since childhood. I thought I read that Elizabeth and Edward were at Dudley’s wedding, but all I could find for sure was that Edward was there.
Elizabeth was dreadfully ill when she made the bedside demand that if anything happened to her, Robert should be Lord Protector of the country with a large salary to go with the title. I’m not sure she was making any sense at all. She didn’t ask that he be named king. She did not name anyone to that position. She always refused to name an heir to her throne. IMO, as ill as she was, and still suffering with fever, she thought only of protecting Dudley in case she should die. None of the Council would have allowed that to stand since they had no love whatsoever for Dudley. I doubt if Dudley himself thought this would be upheld. He wasn’t even a councilor at this point. When she was recovered from smallpox, one of the first things she did was appoint Robert to the Privy Council.
I have always thought that Amy’s death was an accident. I haven’t read Skidmore’s book yet, so I can’t comment on his theory. I think she was weakened by the cancer and should not have tried to go up or down stairs without help.
There was always Henry Carey if Elizabeth had died. I don’t know though, Carey pretty much stayed out of the political scene. But then again maybe that would have worked to his benefit. Thomas Howard was a second cousin to Elizabeth whereas Carey was a first cousin. Howard was Catholic, Carey was protestant. Carey was well liked by all, and Howard was barely tolerated.
12:35 am
October 28, 2013
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Sharon said
Elizabeth always knew that Robert was married. They had known each other since childhood. I thought I read that Elizabeth and Edward were at Dudley’s wedding, but all I could find for sure was that Edward was there.
Elizabeth was dreadfully ill when she made the bedside demand that if anything happened to her, Robert should be Lord Protector of the country with a large salary to go with the title. I’m not sure she was making any sense at all. She didn’t ask that he be named king. She did not name anyone to that position. She always refused to name an heir to her throne. IMO, as ill as she was, and still suffering with fever, she thought only of protecting Dudley in case she should die. None of the Council would have allowed that to stand since they had no love whatsoever for Dudley. I doubt if Dudley himself thought this would be upheld. He wasn’t even a councilor at this point. When she was recovered from smallpox, one of the first things she did was appoint Robert to the Privy Council.
I don’t think that Elizabeth was always aware of the things happening at court as often times she was not there.As to Edward being at Dudley’s wedding as far as I know that is true but as I just commented Elizabeth may not have been at court during this time and when she wasn’t I don’t think her contact with her brother was very regular due to the people surrounding him.I also think that Elizabeth had made Dudley Protector of the Realm after she recovered as a precaution in case something like that happening again.Elizabeth never asked for him to be made king as she knew the dangers of this so she wouldn’t have.As to the Privey Council I think they would have had to except the queen’s decision in the matter but that is not to say there wouldn’t have been plots to overthrow Dudley if this had happened.
12:37 am
November 18, 2010
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Sharon said
There was always Henry Carey if Elizabeth had died. I don’t know though, Carey pretty much stayed out of the political scene. But then again maybe that would have worked to his benefit. Thomas Howard was a second cousin to Elizabeth whereas Carey was a first cousin. Howard was Catholic, Carey was protestant. Carey was well liked by all, and Howard was barely tolerated.
Carey was never recognised as Henry’s son, though. But that would exclude the claims of the rest of Mary Tudor’s descendants especially the children of Elenaor Brandon and her daughter Lady Margaret Clifford, should the Stuart line be totally excluded.
It's always bunnies.
12:45 am
October 28, 2013
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Boleyn said
If it was murder, the servant didn’t do Dudley a favour he damn near destroyed him. Dudley did have many enemies at court though and it was only Elizabeth that protected from them. Elizabeth was a born flirt, in fact I think sometimes she went a little too far with her fancy’s (loosely worded) but equally well she knew her duty to England. If she had chosen to marry she would have chosen someone Princely, not a commoner.
I think she named Dudley as protector purely because in her delerum she wasn’t thinking straight. As much as she loved him, I don’t think she ever really trusted him 100%, and he did do things at times to hack her off. Dudley as protector wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes as the wolves would have ripped him apart before they had even buried Elizabeth. Norfolk would have made sure of that, as I believe he was among one of the senior royal bloods at the time. I’m not sure but I think he had a claim to the throne, with at that time only woman claiments to it, there was a good chance he would have got it too. Yes we all know that MQS was considered the next heir, but would the people of England want a forgien Queen on their throne? The answer is no, the people had enough hassles coping with Philip, but at least he was male. Mary QOS I think would be pushing it a little to far to except.
Dudley would have had his little moment in the sun, but I think Norfolk would soon darken his outlook for him, and Dudley would be sent home with his head in a doggy bag, and England would have had a brand new dynasty after all. The Howard dynasty.. This is only a thought mind you I could be completely wrong.
Just to throw a little spanner in the works. If Mary Scots had borne a daughter or James had died in infancy, what would have happened then. Who would have been considered as Heir for England. I know Catherine Grey had had a boy by then but he was bastardised. but what can be done can be undone so to speak.
But somehow I don’t think a child on the throne would be of much use at this time. I’d go for Norfolk, if Elizabeth had died, of smallpox.
For Amy Robsart’s murder read this link. http://allthingsrobertdudley.w…..e-coroner/
2:22 am
November 18, 2010
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Boleyn said
Just to throw a little spanner in the works. If Mary Scots had borne a daughter or James had died in infancy, what would have happened then. Who would have been considered as Heir for England. I know Catherine Grey had had a boy by then but he was bastardised. but what can be done can be undone so to speak.
But somehow I don’t think a child on the throne would be of much use at this time. I’d go for Norfolk, if Elizabeth had died, of smallpox.
THere was also the line of descent through Eleanor Brandon, Frances’s sister who had an English born daughter. Plus there was the 2 sons of Margaret Douglas who was the daughter of Margaret Tudor from her second marriage.
It's always bunnies.
2:48 am
October 28, 2013
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Also on Amy Robsart’s killer. http://allthingsrobertdudley.w…..ys-killer/
I think things in Dudley’s household got out of hand and this man Verney took it upon himself to act.I think after the deed was done Dudley found out who it was that killed her.Only he couldn’t bring the man to justice because it would implicate himself.Perhaps afterwards Verney extorted him for certain favors.Although ,Verney never came into too much power he did keep his head and was elected Sheriff of Warwickshire in 1562.
Boleyn,I think Elizabeth could do exactly as she pleased and if this included marrying Dudley then she would have done so.Had he stayed free from marriage and scandal as he was in the beginning she just might have.I think the people would have accepted Dudley as king more willingly than some foreign prince.But as her reign progressed Dudley did not fit the part any longer.If Elizabeth had died I think I would have gone with Eleanor Brandon’s children.
4:41 pm
February 24, 2010
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Anyanka said
Sharon said
There was always Henry Carey if Elizabeth had died. I don’t know though, Carey pretty much stayed out of the political scene. But then again maybe that would have worked to his benefit. Thomas Howard was a second cousin to Elizabeth whereas Carey was a first cousin. Howard was Catholic, Carey was protestant. Carey was well liked by all, and Howard was barely tolerated.
Carey was never recognised as Henry’s son, though. But that would exclude the claims of the rest of Mary Tudor’s descendants especially the children of Elenaor Brandon and her daughter Lady Margaret Clifford, should the Stuart line be totally excluded.
Right…what was I thinking? I knew that!
The three people who were said to have been mentioned for the succession by the very worried Council were Katherine Grey, Margaret Douglas, and Lord Huntingdon, Henry Hastings. Mary QOS was never mentioned, nor was Norfolk.
5:35 pm
January 3, 2012
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If I am right in thinking I think Margaret Douglas, was considered (loosely) as Queen Mary’s heir or her sons were anyway. Margaret Douglas did enjoy great favour with Mary Tulip, and I know that when Mary died and Elizabeth was given the throne she was a little disgruntled, and tried to get Darnley to court Elizabeth, But even back then he was known as a notorious rake, and I think she soon give him short shift and sent him home with a flea in his ear, which of course promoted his mother to get him to turn to the only other person who could give him a crown. MQS.
The reason I mentioned Norfolk, was because until Elizabeth sorted out the act of uniformity the country was still under the Catholic Jackboot, and as a Catholic he would have been viewed as the next heir possibly, but his father, was executed as a traitor, his grandfather was judged a traitor but was pardoned by Mary Tulip but died in disgrace when he messed up big time in her reign.
Yes it can be argued that in fact Darnley was, as he was a Catholic (well he pretended to be IMO) too. But his claim had been disbarred through H8 will. No kids of my sister Margaret will have my throne blah blah blah typical bad tempered blustering from a fat wobbled bottomed twat..
Katherine Grey, was a contender, well she might of been but for one thing. Her Sister, her 2 brother’s in law and her father in law were judged and executed as traitors, as had her own father. I doubt it would sit well with the people to have a traitor’s sprog on the throne.
Again Henry Hastings, his father and his grandmother and great grandfather were judged traitors and executed, which again completely disbarred the from the throne. His grandmother was Anne Stafford daughter of The Duke of Buckingham and Catherine Woodville. That Duke of Buckingham and his son werte both executed as traitors.
It seems to me as if the whole country would have erupted into a civil war if Elizabeth had died, for all the possible claiments had the sword of damacles with the word traitor written on it hanging over their head.
Henry Carey well if Fat arse had accepted him then surely he would have come after Edward, for boy’s were always preferred over girls. But again, that too would cause problems, as Mary Tulip would declare civil war on her people in order to claim what she believed was hers, as in the Pope’s eyes etc, she and only she was considered the legitmate heir so would perhaps even give her an army (holy) to help her take the throne. So if Henry Carey became H9 he wouldn’t last that long.
Either way in my opinion, if Elizabeth had died of smallpox the country would erupt into civil war.
I wonder if it would be as it was, in one of the Egyptian epochs I read not long ago that with a short space of a year there were 14 monarchs, that works out at about a 4 or 5 day rule before being bumped off by their successor.
Well at least 5 days was better than nothing, one of the empresses, can’t remember exactly what country, used to employ(or more like insist) people to forecast the weather. If they got it right they lived and were given a day of luxury and pampering and sexual pleasure, if they got it wrong they were executed on the spot. As you can imagine volunteers were a little thin on the ground for the job.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
5:46 pm
February 24, 2010
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MrsFiennes said
I don’t think that Elizabeth was always aware of the things happening at court as often times she was not there.As to Edward being at Dudley’s wedding as far as I know that is true but as I just commented Elizabeth may not have been at court during this time and when she wasn’t I don’t think her contact with her brother was very regular due to the people surrounding him.
I t was Mary who was not on good terms with Edward during his reign. After the Thomas Seymour fiasco, Elizabeth was on good terms with Edward, Somerset, and later John Dudley. The two siblings corresponded frequently through letters. Elizabeth was at court for Christmas of 1549. In May of 1550 Edward requested a portrait be sent to him by Elizabeth. She was in touch with John Dudley frequently that year. She received lands and money due her through Henry’s will. At this time William Cecil, who was John Dudley’s secretary, became her surveyor and was engaged to help her with her estates. In Sept. of 1550 she wrote to request to come to court again. In March of 1551 she was at court. Her brother was delighted to see his “dearest sister,” “his sweet Temperance.” She was at court this time until at least October. In April of 1552 Edward became ill, and when he recovered he wrote to Elizabeth. She was again at court later that year. It wasn’t until the last six months of his life that they were not in contact with each other. Northumberland, at this time would not pass Elizabeth’s letters to Edward, and he refused her request to visit him.
The times she wasn’t at Edward’s court were few and far between. It was Robert’s marriage to Lettice that Elizabeth did not know about for a while.
(The author who claims that Elizabeth was at Robert’s wedding is Phillippa Jones, in her book Elizabeth, Virgin Queen, pg 142. (June 4th 1550) I’m skeptical. She is the only one that I found said this and she did not reference it.)
6:05 pm
February 24, 2010
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Boleyn I agree with you. What a mess England would have been if Elizabeth had died in 1562. Again, I don’t know why I even mentioned Henry Carey. I don’t even believe he was Henry’s son. A brain freeze, I guess. All of the people mentioned when Elizabeth was ill, would have ben horrible choices. I do not think there would have been peace in England for many years to come.
I also read yesterday that Norfolk had been raised Protestant. ? Is that right?
7:18 pm
January 3, 2012
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Very possible that Norfolk was taught the protestant doctorines, but like so many of the older Catholic families, their real faith and beliefs were kept hidden from view., to be brought out when it needed to. The Howards were major players in the Catholic circles, so when Fat Arse changed all that they had to conform with him or lose everything they had gained.
When little Eddy was on the throne, I don’t think they held much sway in court life, well with the old man, still in the tower the odious little runt, Young Howard would be always viewed with suspition, due to what happened to his father just weeks before fat arse kicked the bucket.
When Mary Tulip took the throne, she changed all that little Eddy had tried to do, and the only way to curry favour with her was to be a true fervent Catholic. Even Cecil had to give the outward appearence of being a good repentant Catholic, otherwise I’ve no doubt Mary Tulip would have shortened him by a head or turned into a frazzle, not matter how good a statesman he was.
The Howards were ambitious, no doubt about that I rather think, if Henry Tulip and Dicky 3 had managed to kill each other at Bosworth his grandfather may have made a play for the throne himself. How he would have claimed his right to it, I don’t know, but if my lousy rotton brain is working right (would make a change) I think he would have said his line goes back to Adeliza of Louvain, who was Henry 1st second wife, although she bore him no children the fact she was a crown and anoited Queen gave him his royal blood. His line on the male side of things would come from her secord marriage in 1138. 3 years after the death of Henry 1st to William “D” Aubginy, the 1st Earl of Arnudel through her marriage and children with William she can claim decent to.
King Henry V & King Henry VI of England (via Mary de Bohun & the Earls of Arundel)
King Henry VII of England & his descendants(via the Earls of Arundel & the Beauforts)
Queen Anne Boleyn
Queen Jane Seymour
Queen Catherine Howard
Owain Glyndŵr Prince of Wales via his mother Elizabeth Le Strange
Got to admit he’s right, even if he’s a jumped up twerp like his grandfather.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
7:45 pm
January 3, 2012
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Thnere is of course another reason to why Mary QOS was disbarred from the succestion, apart from Fat Arse’s limp wristed excuse. Her Father, Grandfather and Great grandfather all fell to the English Halberds. Her grandfather especially must have hacked Fat arse off, as it was his death that made him look a bigger prat than he already was. Whilst he was ponching about France playing the big I am, and acheiving very little, a few live dukes I think K.O.A called them. James 4th was given the rough end of a Halberd up his bum, by a Queen. Woman were viewed as soft weak creatures, who can easily be taken advantage of, (Unfortunately that is how some people view them today as well) but James 4th learnt too late that this was one Queen you couldn’t cross swords with and come off the better man. Her triumph over J4 , make fat arse’s live dukes look a pimple on a bulls arse.
Elizabeth never named J6 as her heir, but in light of the rest of the bunch he was perhaps the best bet for the country, even if his mother was judged and executed as a traitor. I also feel that his assention to the throne of England was was way of making ammends to him and to the people of Scotland, who still viewed Mary as Queen even after James Stewart’s coup de tat of the throne in 1567, for mary’s death at her hands
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
