Olga said
Mantel can reconcile those comments Steve, because she doesn’t want to be put in the historical fiction rubbish bin and needs to sell her books. The publishers tend to market historical fiction towards the romance fiction audience (which usually requires a headless woman in a gown) If they’re going to spin Bring up the Bollocks as serious literary fiction they have to present Mantel as a great intellect. She clearly has an excellent grasp on her Thesaurus but seems to be confused as to how to actually use the words in the correct grammatical fashion, all the while confusing her tenses within the same paragraph. But if you slap a Booker prize on it, it’s literary. If she keeps dramatically intoning that “we don’t know if Anne was guilty or not” people will keep buying her books, historically accurate or no.

I can’t really argue with any of the points you make, Olga, as they ring true to me.

While I appreciate that there’s a lot of truly bad genre fiction around, I do wish so-called serious authors wouldn’t be so snobby about it; it’s as if they’re terrified of being labelled a “mere” Horror/Sci-Fi/Romance/Hist. Fic. writer. Although I admire Wolf Hall, I honestly can’t take it seriously as Literary Fiction; it is what it is, and no amount of critical acclaim or authorial denial can alter my impression.

Mantel can be as snobby as she likes, because she is never going to outsell Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter

But you’re exactly correct, Mantel doesn’t want to be slotted in the same category as Philippa Gregory. And you can say what you like about PG, but she has done more for sales of history books over the last ten years than any other fiction author has or probably will. While Mantel was gracious enough to mention a few historians in the back of her book Gregory writes detailed bibliographies for further reading, she has also gotten several history books back in print after arousing interest in them again. Half of the historians who put her down wouldn’t be enjoying the lucrative contracts they have with Amberley now if it wasn’t for her Tudor series.

Boleyn said

she frustrates the hell out of me, to the point there is a thundercloud of dark blue with lightening coming from it over my house

Olga, LOL Bring up the Bollocks indeed Love it you are almost as squirrels as I am.
To be fair I’ve really only ever bought 2 of S.W.M.N.B.N books, other people have brought me the others as presents, thinking I would like them, yeah well the chipmunks certainly like them it’s given them plenty to do and at least they aren’t chewing the furniture, although I confess there are a few of my teeth marks in the furniture from reading them.
I actually find that S.W.M.N.B.N, books are very good if you have got constapation, only make sure you are sat on the bog when you read them or you will make a mess on the floor, and of course there is an added bonus there that you already have the toilet paper to hand when you are done. LOL
I’m sorry I couldn’t help but sneak that one in. LOL Slap on wrist for Boleyn.

Bill1978 said

We really do need a biography published on George Boleyn to help the mass public of historical fiction readers the truth about George. Or at least a reference book that they can check. Cause we all know that while the Wikipedia page is very factual, people do like to throw out the whole ‘You can’t trust Wikipedia’ when the information on there doesn’t match their thinking.

I still can get my head around the fact that Mary Boleyn has a biography but George hasn’t. Hell it amazes me that Mary has an ‘exhaustive’ biography while Jane Seymour and Anne Of Cleves only have a superficial one.

I agree Bill we do. I know louise at one time was thinking about writing one about George, and I wish she would, as I feel that she is just the right person to do it.
We know so little about J.S and A.O.C, and yet both of them made a big impact on life too. J.S of course Had little Eddy and then died so tragically afterwards. We know that she was a lady in waiting to both K.O.A and A.B but what else? A daughter of a humble knight, with 2 very ambitious brothers, but with or without Jane’s imput to old Lard arse, they would have got what they wanted it would have just taken a bit longer that’s all, and the ending for them would have still worked out the same, as Edward and Thomas were really like Kane and Abel hell bent in destroying each other one way or another.
A.O.C, well what was Cleves? a very minor almost insignificant country in Germany. Anne was admittedly the sister of the Duke, but even so from what we know about her is very little. what her likes and dislikes were etc..I also feel that she was a lot cleverer than people give her credit for.
Certainly her behaviour during the divorce reflects this she managed to get the best possible settlement and as a result she earned Lard Arses respect, but I still feel that if he gave his marriage a chance they would have actually been quite happy.
After her divorce however apart from the odd little mention now and again, i.e being at court for the chrimbo celebrations in 1540? and being at lard arse’s fun for all, that’s about it. until her death in 1557. We know that she converted to Catholism although I don’t know when, and that Mary Tulip became fond of her. We also know that she was popular and well respected, and was buried with honours in Westminster Abbey, but it would be nice to know more about her. What she thought of Henry, and did she have any love affairs after Lard Arse booted her out.?

I thought Warnicke’s book on AOC was more about the concept of marriage during Tudor times rather than a actual biography on AOC?

I do have Norton’s book on AOC in my Tudor collection, but it seems lightweight compared to the tome that Mary Boleyn got from Weir. LOL

Bill, I hope Louise does publish her book on George Boleyn in the not too distant future. I have her e-book on George on my desktop – It’s very good. I wonder how long it will be before Claire publishes her book on the Boleyns.

Yes I am fortunate as well to have Louise’s great e-book on George. My problem is that when it comes to reading stuff on the computer I’m a skimmer and a jumper and a non concentrator. It’s why I refuse to get a kindle, I don’t think I would ever read a novel and actually absorb what is going on LOL. I need physical books to concentrate on what is happening and being said. God I sound older than what I am.

Mariette: I know lard arse wasn’t pleased with her appearence himself, but to be honest she wasn’t that bad. Marriages anyway were more to do with postion and power, back then. Think about it she came from a unknown or little known province in Germany, without a penny to he name or a pot to piss in, in 6 months she became the King’s adopted sister, rich, and with many homes and many pots to piss in.
A man who was ambitious would only see her wealth and status not her. I believe that when Thomas Seymour asked little Eddy for permission to marry, A.O.C was offered as a prospective bride, which of course he turned down.

I agree Mariette. I feel that A.O.C was actually a very pleasent looking woman. Somewhere on the forum someone has put a picture in that although identified as K.H does have some simlarties to A.O.C.. The Holbien portrait I think is a fairly good likeness of her but it’s her dress that lets her down she did look rather awful in it, but I believe she did adopt the English style of dress when she came to live here. If Henry hadnt of been so eager in thundering down here to see her at Rochester Castle, without warning she may have had time to wear something a little more flattering.

You are right about her money issues after lard arse died, if memory serves she actually wrote to her brother at one point asking for money.
I think it was more than guilt money, I think it was a bribe to keep her mouth shut about his bedroom antics or lack there of I should say. Although we do know that he did have loud and noisy sex with K.H, (Makes my stomach turn thinking about that fat blubbery stinking walrus grinding away on a very petite young girl, I dread to think what she was thinking??)
After all Anne only had to say “Do you know what Henry and I did have sex etc” and that would have caused all sorts of complications.
Lard Arse had a planet Earth sized ego and a body to match it too. But like all men who are too puffed up one swift kick in the happy sacks and they will drop like everyone else.

Firstly welcome to our family home irc 162, we are a very mixed bunch of Scallywags, who enjoys a good debate and having a giggle along the way too.

There is no proof to what George and Jane relationship actually was, were they happy or sad? I’m inclined to think that they were mutual towards one another. I don’t think Jane resented the close bond Anne and George had but she may have felt at times a little out of place, but not to the point where she was jealous. It was maybe from the standpoint that Anne and George’s conversations were a little bit over her head, or beyond her understanding if that makes sence. We don’t actually know what level of education Jane had, but I don’t think she was as educated as either Anne or George.
If she had recented Anne in anyway I don’t think she would have put her whole life/carreer at court at risk by tackling a baggage who had caught H8’s eye.
Assaulting another member of court was a big no no and could get you booted out of court for good.
H8 incest charge against Anne was intended to blacken her and turn the people against her. It was also H8 way of playing the poor bleeding Martyr and getting sympathy.. H8 was a master at playing the sympathy and outraged King cards. In short a bullshit artist.
He knew that the charges that he and Cromwell dreamed up between them to get rid of Anne were lies, and he lived with the guilt of knowing that he had sent an innocent woman to her death for the rest of his life.