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3:19 pm
November 18, 2010
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And now another reason not to watch The Tudors.
I always had a soft spot for GB. After all he was the one who has being groomed to be the perfect Tudor courtier and then first Mary then Anne had his place in the sun.
It must have been hard for him to see his family's influence being dependant of the skills of his sisters rather than the political skills of him and their father. Even though George was close to Anne, she was the one with the patronage and power, the one with the king's ear.
And then at the height of her power, she was pushed and everything they had worked for was gone.
It's always bunnies.
3:33 pm
December 5, 2009
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I really don't think that George and Thomas' influence was solely based on Anne, and certainly not Mary. They were both highly intelligent, talented men in their own right and would have had bright court careers in any event. George was also influential at court, especially when it came to religious reform. I think he would have been successful in any event, with or without Anne's help, and would certainly have lived longer to have had the opportunity to be remembered along with Henry's other favoured courtiers rather than being remembered for the manner of his death. Poor George! He died because his sister didn't have a son and because his brother-in-law had the emotional maturity of a peanut.
4:40 am
December 5, 2009
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Like Claire I’ve spent the last few weeks considering the relationship between Anne and George Boleyn. Unlike Claire, I have come to an entirely different conclusion. To my surprise this is what I came up with:-
1. As children Anne was far more likely to have been closer to her sister than she was to George. In any event George would probably have been sent away to school at the age of seven, so by the time Anne was sent abroad they probably had little of the bonds which bind young siblings.
2. They are unlikely to have spent any of their teenage years together, whatever Bapst may surmise, and therefore they would have been unlikely to have had any particularly close bond by the time Anne returned to England in late 1521.
3. George was not at Anne’s moment of glory i.e. her Coronation, which I think speaks volumes. The loving sister obviously felt he was more use to her elsewhere.
4. George dedicated two translations to Anne in which he describes himself as her, ‘most loving and friendly brother’. As he owed his advancement almost solely to her, that was hardly surprising. All this translation shows is that he was good at sucking up.
5. George’s whole diplomatic career was in furtherance of his sister using him in her selfish, singleminded obsession for the throne.
6. Anne called him her ‘sweet broder’ when in the Tower. Again, hardly surprising bearing in mind she had spent her whole adult life using him.
7. And then there is the incest allegation, which we are so quick to dismiss. De Carlos’ poem surely provides a case to answer. Perhaps Gregory has a point, because I would put nothing passed this pair of hyenas
8. Claire is wrong. The siblings were not close. Their’s was a cold, calculated, symbiotc relationship undertaken by a pair of cold, calculating siblings.
Does anyone want to punch me yet? Obviously everything I’ve said above is complete and utter rubbish. However, for anyone who hates the Boleyns, they’ll accept it. I just wanted to show how easy it is to twist known facts in order to support a theory. It doesn’t have to be well argued, it just has to be argued, and somebody somewhere will swallow it, simply because they want to. Something pure can suddenly become sordid just because an author and/or historian wanted to put a different slant on the story.
After all, something similar happened in 1536. Henry eagerly accepted Anne and George had committed incest. Whether he believed it or not is another matter!!
7:25 am
January 3, 2012
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Some very interesting points raised here. I think George and Anne had a very close relationship, maybe because they matched in temprement. In the film with Ray Winstone. Anne at her trial pointed out that she bore a great love for a brother in the sence of the fact that she nursed him when he was sick and played games with him as a child, and I think that is exactly what is was just a normal brother and sister relationship.
As for his sexuality, well none of us can really be sure, I don’t think he was homosexual, but neither do I think he was Bi sexual, I think that Anne was the centre of his world, and next to her other woman were dull and insipid, and really held no attraction for him. He possibly could have had close relations with male courtiers, but whether it was sexual no one can really tell. Certainly if he was a closet homosexual or Bi sexual he hid it very well, and if he did have sexual relations with a man again it was well hidden. If proof was to be found about George’s sexuality I think it would be that he was Bi sexual.
As for his wife, well I know he wasn’t happy with the marriage, as Jane I think was brought up in the conventual way of being subservient etc, where as Anne was pretty much brought up as youngsters are today. So to George, Jane must have bored him rigid.
Jane was jealous of Anne and perhaps this was the reason why she went along with Cromwell when Henry wanted rid of Anne, as I said in one of prior posting I think it’s quite possible that Cromwell may have co-ersed Jane into saying that Anne and George had slept together, with the promise that once Anne was out of the way she and George could be together, although that might be in exile. Or perhaps she just wanted to be free from George, thinking that perhaps she could make a match more of her liking.
We really don’t know too much about George as a person, his likes and dislikes etc, as history really records him as being Anne Boleyn’s brother who was executed on 17th May for insest with his sister Anne Boleyn Queen of England.. So it would be intresting to find out the real George Boleyn. Was George in love with someone else when he was forced (loosely worded) into marrying Jane? Or was George Boleyn gay and Thomas made him marry Jane against his wishes to prevent embarrasment, disgrace, dishonour and death on the family?
And just who was Jane Parker? We’ve only ever referred to her as Lady Rochford, but she was someone other than that before her marriage?
What were her feeling towards marrying George?
Anyway some good points for me to mull over here. George Boleyn is a very complex person, perhaps more complex than Anne.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
7:47 am
December 5, 2009
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Boleyn, there is no evidence that George was either homo or bi-sexual. There is no evidence that it was Jane who gave evidence against Anne and George and there is no evidence to suggest George’s marriage to Jane was unhappy or that he prefered the company of Anne to that of any other woman. There is a huge amount of information about George in the primary sources, and both Claire and I have written numerous articles about him. If you go into ‘George Boleyn’ on the right side of the main site there are 40 articles about him, and also a number about Jane.
We do know George’s likes and dislikes because of his inclusion in the Privy Purse Expenses. He loved tennis, archery, card games and hunting, particularly with hawks. I’ve actually written an article about the many sources he can be found in. He was a powerful man and highly influential. He is known for far more than simply being Anne’s brother.
8:45 am
January 3, 2012
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Louise said
Boleyn, there is no evidence that George was either homo or bi-sexual. There is no evidence that it was Jane who gave evidence against Anne and George and there is no evidence to suggest George’s marriage to Jane was unhappy or that he prefered the company of Anne to that of any other woman. There is a huge amount of information about George in the primary sources, and both Claire and I have written numerous articles about him. If you go into ‘George Boleyn’ on the right side of the main site there are 40 articles about him, and also a number about Jane.
We do know George’s likes and dislikes because of his inclusion in the Privy Purse Expenses. He loved tennis, archery, card games and hunting, particularly with hawks. I’ve actually written an article about the many sources he can be found in. He was a powerful man and highly influential. He is known for far more than simply being Anne’s brother.
Thank you for that Louise, like I said George is a very complex person. I knew that he did the usual things such as tennis, cards, hunting and hawking.
Hawking was perhaps one of his favourites.
I think that Jane perhaps wasn’t happy at the start of her marriage with George after all how would you like being married to someone you didn’t really know. Yes he was in high court circles but even so that’s not enough to base a marriage on is it? I think she possibly did have some feelings for George, but whether they were reciprcated is a matter of conjecture.
I do feel that perhaps George did try to make his marriage to Jane work, but as I said Anne was really the sun in his world and Jane perhaps was rather dull and boring in his eyes. George was part of the IT crowd, whilst Jane perhaps just wanted to settle down and be a wife and mother.
George was’nt ready for that he was perhaps a little bit of a playboy I hope that makes sence. He wanted perhaps a little more in his life that just being a husband and father. The real George is still an unknown. as you say he liked doing the usual things that people in and around court did, but take George out of that situation and try to find the person he was. Find out what he truely thought about his mum and dad, and his sister Mary’s behaviour, what things he liked to do away from court, taking hawking out too. Did he read books? did he write poetry?How he felt about Anne and Henry, More so Henry what did he think of Henry’s behaviour toward KOA. How he felt about Wolsey’s disgrace and death? How he felt about Cromwell? that would be the real George not all the frills and fancies from around the court..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
8:53 am
December 5, 2009
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Yes he did read books and yes he did write poetry. I’ve written an article on it. As for what he was really like and what he thought of the people round him, surely you can say the same about anyone who lived five-hundred years ago. We can’t possibly know what any of them were really like as people or what they really thought. All we can do is look at the primary sources and take educated guesses based on those sources and based on the letters they wrote, a number of which survive of letters George sent. I think those letters and his dedication to Anne attached to his translations for her give a very good indication of George’s personality.
9:19 am
January 3, 2012
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Louise said
Yes he did read books and yes he did write poetry. I’ve written an article on it. As for what he was really like and what he thought of the people round him, surely you can say the same about anyone who lived five-hundred years ago. We can’t possibly know what any of them were really like as people or what they really thought. All we can do is look at the primary sources and take educated guesses based on those sources and based on the letters they wrote, a number of which survive of letters George sent. I think those letters and his dedication to Anne attached to his translations for her give a very good indication of George’s personality.
Thank you once again Louise.
George is perhaps an enigma, as everyone of that time is. But his freinds were I believe were those who were also accused with him, with exception of Mark Smeaton who was beneath his station. I also believe that the Seymours were what you call fair weather freinds with him for a short while, and perhaps used George to get Jane noticed by the King. Once done they dropped him.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
9:25 am
December 5, 2009
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George being used by the Seymours to get Jane noticed is certainly a new idea to me. I think I need a lie down with a damp cloth and a stiff drink!
9:30 am
January 3, 2012
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Louise said
George being used by the Seymours to get Jane noticed is certainly a new idea to me. I think I need a lie down with a damp cloth and a stiff drink!
LOL. You can’t say I don’t tax the old noggins of you all.. I certainly liven things up too.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
1:38 pm
February 24, 2010
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Boleyn,
There is no way George would have allowed himself to be used by the Seymour brothers to get Jane noticed by Henry. To what end? He would have been betraying Anne.
2:55 pm
November 18, 2010
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Especially as Jane was being promoted by Anne’s enemies in the Spanish party.
It's always bunnies.
3:16 pm
January 3, 2012
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Sharon said
Boleyn,
There is no way George would have allowed himself to be used by the Seymour brothers to get Jane noticed by Henry. To what end? He would have been betraying Anne.
But is it just possible that George was an unwitting party to the Seymours master plan of Jane being noticed. Remember the Seymours were ambitious, and what better way of getting attention and sharing a slice of power pie than getting one of the top dogs to unwittingly do something for you.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
1:44 am
December 5, 2009
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Again this is new to me, because in all the research I’ve done on George I’ve never come across anything to suggest he was as thick as a brick.
12:10 pm
January 3, 2012
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LOL love it Louise..
It seems to me that George is indeed a victim in one very sick plot. Having now brushed up a little on George Boleyn, he does seem to come across as an intelligent young man who was perhaps used by others to gain power. I certainly feel that perhaps his relationship with Anne was very much misunderstood, and again those people who sought to pull the rug out under the Boleyns twisted it for their own ends. As for his marriage I don’t think if he was given the free choice as we now have, I don’t think he would have chosen someone like Jane Parker, who perhaps seemed dull compared with Anne. Jane is a complex charater, but I think that perhaps she tried to imitate Anne to please her husband but sometimes imitation is not the sincerious form of flattery and I think that was the case where Jane was concerned, as she perhaps had got the intelligence to fit in fully where Anne and George were concerned.
The whole question of incest I think was invented by Cromwell, and I rather think that perhaps Jane sort of believed it, or perhaps wanted to believe it.
I also think that George saw Jane and the whole marriage thing as a completely plutonic relationship. Jane I feel must have loved George, but those feelings weren’t reciprocated by George, he perhaps couldn’t love anyone else but Anne.
As for his sexuality well as I said before if he was homosexual or Bi sexual he certainly hid it very well, but I don’t believe he was. I think he did have sexual relationships with woman but his wife was not an option when it came to sex, perhaps he liked woman who were experienced in the art of making love, whereas his wife must have seemed in comparrision like making love to a sack of spuds.
All in all I feel that George was perhaps a nice guy after all, who perhaps didn’t always see what was blatently obvious, and perhaps sometimes ran headlong into the fire without thinking of the conseqences, and Anne perhaps acted as the voice of reason and kept him on a tight rein, when he wanted to do something foolhardy. I don’t think for one minute he was a thick as a corned beef sandwich, far from it in fact I think he was well educated and astute, but like most males did things on impulse rather than reason things out first.
If George had of lived when Anne was executed I think he would turn to Jane for comfort but I think he would have died of a broken heart not long after.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
1:46 pm
May 7, 2010
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As others have said I think George is sadly served by history. It is almost as though a scriptwriter has looked at his characterisation and said “too boring, we have to build him up a bit. Make him gay and let him hate his wife, treat her badly. Maybe he could sexually abuse her a bit, give her a slap now and then. We could have him sh*g around a bit with his mates and hey why not have him try to help his sister get pregnant, yeah that would work. Haha after all he’s dead he can’t sue”
George was like his father a hard working courtier who travelled a lot in Henry’s service. He learned his job well and he coped well with the changes to his family status as things developed between Anne and Henry. He was supportive of his sister and his family as a whole. I just feel he was a nice, normal chappie who did his best in the times he lived in and in the somewhat fraught atmosphere of the Tudor court.
I think that while he coped well with things as they occurred he would maybe have liked it better if his sister had never caught Henry’s eye. If he could have had his marriage, a wife who lived at Hever and had children with him visiting when his duties allowed. Basically the life he saw his father had during his childhood. He would perhaps have been noted in history very differently if things had fallen out that way.
I also think George was perhaps more astute than his father and could see the likely ending of Anne’s marriage, I don’t mean he saw exactly what was to befall them but I do think he was aware of the likelihood of it all going awry. To my mind this affected his relationship with Jane. I really believe he would have preferred her to be ‘at home’ away from the intrigues for her own protection as much as anything. Jane though, like any young woman, wanted to be where the bright young things were, she wanted to be part of the court serving her sister in law, the gossip, the parties, the dancing and the excitement.
I find it hard to believe that George and Jane married under pressure from either of their families. There was no need for that sort of pressure from either father. They were of an age, knew each other and there is really nothing I have ever read which has convinced me they disliked each other any more than any other married couple does at times.
As to Jane and her part in his ‘downfall’ I think in the end that whatever evidence she did or did not proffer was all done at George’s behest in large part. I think he gave her the green light to protect herself and do all she could to ensure her own future if it looked as though he was a lost cause. Though I also feel sure that George truly believed he would survive the whole fiasco. There may well have been such an assurance given by Cromwell.
I think George was a man who died bravely and was a great loss to his time.
Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60
2:34 pm
April 9, 2011
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As I’ve previously written George is probably my favourite personality from the Tudor Period. Don’t know why really.
re: His sexuality – in the novel The Other Boleyn Girl, I don’t mind his portrayal as being homosexual for some reason in my mind it works as a storytelling device to show the different sides of George. I found the discussions he has with his sisters around his secret love affairs to show a more gentler and sensitive side to the emotionless George that he presents to Henry VII’s court. Of course reading it I know that it is pure fiction, the problem arises when PG insists her boo is factual. It would have been much better for her to say she took Warnicke’s theory and used it for dramactic licence even though the theory has been discredited. Yes you can argue that PG didn’t need to make George gay to show his sensitive side but as I said in my opinion it works as a plot device.
I do think George though was an innocent victim of PG’s desire to smear the reputation of Anne Boleyn. To write a subplot to show how morally empty Anne is, PG prevents the incest charge as being highly plausible and in the mean time not only ruins Anne’s reputation but throws a massive pile of mud in George’s face, which ends up painting him as a deceptive young man with no morals – which in turn makes his ‘hidden gay affair into a sneaky and deceptive act
re: Jane – Julia Fox’s biography on her shows that perhaps the Jane/George union was as loveless as imagined. I think a lot of the loveless marriage talk stems from the myth that Jane provided the evidence for the incest charge. A myth I believe only started AFTER Jane’s death. I can only imagine what the writers thought of Jane. Here was a lady that helped a Queen have a secret affair, a lady who saw her own brother charged with sleeping his his own sister Queen. If Jane helped Katharine after seeing her husband executed than surely she must be a cold hearted bitch and dobbed in her husband. And if she dobbed in her husband, then surely there was no love in the marriage.
Also throw in the fact that no child or pregnancy was recorded between the two, I can see why it would be easy to assume the marriage was loveless. I believe that the Jane/George union was a typical marriage of the Tudor time. It was arranged and they were slowly getting to know one another and quite possible mutally respected one another like most marriages of Tudor times. It was Henry VIII who decided that people should be marrying for love not for political gain. So maybe it is also Henry’s fault that Jane/George’s marriage is viewed as loveless. If Anne married for love, why didn’t her brother?
And I’ll conclude with my lament of this thread. If his sister Mary and his wife Jane can get a biography dedicated to them, oh why can’t a historian have the guts to write a full blown biography on George. No offence meant for Louise’s awesome unpublished work.
3:10 pm
December 5, 2009
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George was one of the most intelligent people of his era. He would never have allowed himself to be used by anyone to gain power. My comment ‘thick as a brick’ was irony. I have spent five years of my life defending him and I have wrtten a book about him, although I’m starting to think it was a complete waste of time. I can’t keep going round in circles. I give up. This is my last comment on this forum. Thanks everyone, but it’s up to Claire now. xx
3:17 pm
February 24, 2010
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I wish Louise would have her work published. It is excellent.
Bill after reading Louise’s work and Julia Fox’s book about Jane, I came away thinking George and Jane had a pretty darn good marriage as far as Tudor marriages went.
I do disagree as to it being okay for Gregory to make George homosexual. See that’s my problem with her. Yes, we look up everything, but people who read that book just for the sex of it, which I think is why she wrote it, won’t look that up. I just think it was a slap in George’s face to write about him the way she did. George was a very religious man.
We think differently about homosexuality today, but back then it was a sin. A sin that meant the loss of his immortal soul. In a time when we are learning more and more of the truth about these people, we have authors who write only to sell books and don’t seem to care about the people they are writing about. She could have made George a very compassionate, gentle, man by way of the truth. And that incest thing. Gawd! She must know that theory doesn’t hold water, but there it is in her book. Grrr!
7:15 pm
April 9, 2011
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I admit that that using the homosexual theory was extreme lazy storytelling to get me to feel empathy for George. It is just a major pity that Gregory didn’t list fact from fiction in her author’s note, instead of presenting the book as fact for those people who are too lazy to actually research the truth.
When I read Innocent Traitor, I really appreciated Weir pointing out at the end of the book the stuff she made up for the sake of storytelling. I wish Gregory did the same. Thankfully, the movie version of TOBG didn’t even tough on the homosexual angle for George but all that good work was undone by actually showing the scene of Anne and George contemplating incest.
George is truly fascinating but unfortunately the entertainment world likes to paint him as a villain cause apparently every story needs a sneaky villain.
I also made a typo in saying Jane and George’s marriage was loveless, that was meant to read WASN’T AS LOVELESS.
Please Louise, do not leave us. I value your opinion on all the Tudors not just George. You have so much information to share, you (along with others) have continued to educate me on the world of the Tudors.
