4:13 am
November 18, 2010
Had the Duke of Richmond lived….what position would he have been given in Henry’s will for being a member of the Privy Council minor king/queen?
Could he have prevented the blodshed between the Seymour Brothers? Stopped Dudley taking power?? Or would he have tried to take government and the crown into his own hands??
It's always bunnies.
7:17 am
January 3, 2012
Very interesting question Anyanka, and a difficult one to answer too, since we know so very little about Fitzroy in the first place.
He was certainly given a good education and made a good marriage. If he had lived I think it’s possible H8 may have tried his level best to get him named as the heir. Whether that would be before or after Edward I don’t know. As he was older than Edward he may well have been preferred as King after H8’s death. Edward being only 9 when H8 died didn’t really help the country much and child rulers were always a nightmare, to have on the throne anyway.
Half the trouble with the War of the Roses started because H6 was still just a baby when he came to throne, and was brought up by those who only sought power for themselves, having control of the King was parmount to having that power.
The Seymour Boys proved that point to the max, they were determined to destroy each other. Whatever was behind that reasoning was obviously too deep rooted for anyone to stop. I don’t think it was a case of just jealousy or power hunger it was something more than that.
The other issue of course is that as Fitzroy was married Mary Howard, the daughter of that odious jumped up cretinious poppinjay Norfolk. Would the people want the influence of the Howard’s on the throne or anywhere near the throne?
If Fitzroy had been placed in line of succession after Edward, would Mary Tulip be happy to sit back and let it happen? I somehow doubt it I think there would have again been the power struggles for the throne just as there had been in the Wars of the Roses, and of course as there had been when it was Matilda and Stephen squablling over throne.
Fitzroy’s marriage to Mary Howard may have got him the backing of the Norfolk clan, but we all know how changable the odious jumped up cretinous poppingjay was. If he felt that he wasn’t getting a fair crack of the whip in Fitzroy’s court he would simply walk away and throw his lot in with Mary Tulip and hope that his hopes and dreams would bear fruit at her feet instead, and of course vice versa.
As for Dudley, Fitzroy may have been able to perhaps curtail his ambitions a little. I don’t think Fitzroy would have allowed the marriage of Lady Jane Grey to Guildford Dudley to have happened had he been King himself, and I feel that he would have advised Edward to say no to the match as well.
Dudley was another one of those men like the Seymour Boys, that needed a firm hand when dealing with them, unfortunately Edward wasn’t old enough to take the upper hand, when it came to dealing with them.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
4:57 pm
February 24, 2010
Not for a moment do I believe Fitzroy could have been king. That just sits wrong with me. There is no precedence for it. If he tried to take the throne from a legitimate heir, the same thing that happened to Monmouth would have happened to him. Neither Mary nor Elizabeth would have stood by and let that happen either. That would have ended very badly.
All I see is trouble here.
7:29 pm
January 3, 2012
I am inclined to agree here Sharon, H8 may have been a fat useless wife murdering prat, but he wasn’t stupid. He would have known the consequences of what such an action would do to England if H.F was given a shot of sitting on the big chair wearing the glittery hat. Civil war would have erupted for a start.
I think Fitzroy would have been bumped off sooner rather later to prevent any chance of trying to make a play for the throne.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
11:09 am
June 3, 2013
i think its far less unrealistic/risky than its being presented as – England has at this point 100 years of civil war in its immediate memory, child kings make people nervous, and so they should. the next legitimate option is Mary and Elizabeth, and England had only had one Queen Regnant before, and that went rather badly.
the options were: a child, two women, or a grown – but illegitimate- man capable of both ruling and leading an Army.
all of them would be seen to carry political risks, Edward in his childhood, Mary and Elizabeth in both being female and who they would marry, and Henry in being illegitimate.
people however can be made legitimate, as any grandchild of a Beaufort would know…
11:51 am
January 3, 2012
Very true Bob, but as William the Conqueror proved having a bar sinister in your coat of arms wasn’t such a barrier after all. He was known under a few names when he was just the Duke of Normandy, one of them was William the Bastard.
And again the same could be said (if it can be believed) with E4, he was accused of being a bastard too, didn’t stop him from taking the throne for himself did it?
Both Mary and Elizabeth were considered bastards, up until H8 sorted the tangled web out in 1544, but even so when Elizabeth came to the throne she was still considered as such as well. Mary made sure 100% that she was legitimate by repealing the “great divorce” after she came to throne so technically Elizabeth was illegitimate, being as she was born in 1533 which according to Mary’s charter was while H8 was still legally married to K.O.A.
A male ruler was prefeble to a female ruler, but where Fitzroy was concerned I don’t believe for a second the people would have risen up to help him take the throne.
I think if he had lived he would have just had to be happy with what he had, and be grateful, if he wasn’t then he would just have to take his head home in a Marks and Sparks carrier bag and sulk.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
11:51 am
October 28, 2011
Once Edward was born all plans to legitimise Fitzroy were dropped. The plan to marry him to Mary had been vetoed long before although the Pope was considering it.
Sharon is right, there was no precedence for an illegitimate son to take a place on the King;s council, and it was too dangerous. Too much focus for rebellion when you give them that sort of power. Had Fitzroy lived the Seymours probably would have restricted his position even more, he had a military position (Ireland I think but I can’t remember off the top of my head). Wouldn’t have fared much better under Mary either.
Mary was beloved and quite frankly by Tudor times it seemed no-one cared about the Anarchy. Considering what they had seen Henry VIII put his queens and subjects through in his desperation for a male heir, considering 20,000 men marched behind Mary Tudor into London ignoring Edward’s attempts to make her illegitimate again, considering how much they loved her mother, there is no way in hell anyone would have considered Fitzroy over Mary.
10:48 am
January 3, 2012
I agree Olga, Fitzroy as King, was a great fat NO NO with bells on.
Jane Grey quickly learned what happens to anyone who tries to usurp the throne.
I always thought the issue to do with H8 making Fitzroy legitimate was quickly scotched, but now thinking about it I can see it never really went away, so in many ways I can also understand the added pressure on Anne to produce a son, and fast, and I can also understand why H8 was so cut up (Not as much as Anne was LOL) and blamed Anne although she was dead for Fitzroy’s death. Does this mean he was still toying with the idea to make Fitzroy King right up until his (Fitzroy) death? If that was the case H8 was a bigger fat useless wife murdering prat than I think he is, he must have known the consequences of such an action if he did manage to browbeat his parliament into such a decision, but there again he was a desperate man, and desperate people do desperate things.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
5:36 pm
February 24, 2010
By the time Anne was killed, Henry had made both of his legitimate children bastards. A case I suppose could have been made for Richmond in case no legitimate children followed. I still think it would have been a foolish mistake. There was an Act of Succession passed in July of 1536 switching the line from Elizabeth to any legitimate children Henry and Jane should have. If there were no children from the union, Henry could send a letter patent or his last will to declare who the next heir should be. Fitzroy died four days after the Act was passed. Apparently, he had not completely ruled out Fitzroy. Henry did not blame Anne for Fitzroy’s death. He knew the kid died from disease. He did say before Anne was beheaded that Anne was planning to poison Fitzroy and Mary. (Said with splayed fingers over his eyes to see Fitzroy’s reaction.)
5:47 am
January 3, 2012
Thank you Sharon.. I always thought that H8 had believed Anne had killed Fitzroy by giving him a slow acting poison. I knew that he convinced himself that she was planning to poison both Fitzroy and Mary, and because they both fell ill he was doubly convinced she had carried out her plan.
What did Fitzroy actually die of? Was it the same sort of illness that killed Edward?
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
4:23 pm
February 24, 2010
I have not read that Mary became ill; but if she did it was due to the pressure being placed on her by her father to sign the oath.
In The Bastard Prince, by David Loades, it states that modern medical opinion has suggested that he did not die of TB as Edward did, and as was thought back then, but from “suppurating pulmonary infection”. Fitzroy was at Anne’s beheading. On June 8th he was at the opening of Parliament. On July 8th, Chapuys wrote that Richmond’s doctors claimed he only had months to live and therefore Mary was not in danger of losing her right to the throne. July 18th his father left on progress leaving Fitzroy in London due to his illness. On July 23rd, Chapuys claimed he had heard Fitzroy was dead. The dates vary some between July 23-25th.
1:38 am
November 18, 2010
10:57 am
January 3, 2012
Thank you Sharon. I get the feeling that H8 used Fitzroy as a idle threat towards getting Mary to submit his will daft as that sounds. I believe Mary was ill after her mother’s death, natural enough for she was devoted to her mother. H8 couldn’t risk being too forceful towards Mary whilst her mother lived through fear of provoking all out war with Spain. Once K.O.A was dead however “Bingo” H8 could bully her all he liked. and I kind of get the feeling he might have said something like this to her “Submit to me or else I’ll make Fitzroy King” after the son Anne will give me (Anne being Pregnant at that time) Deep in Mary’s heart she knew that wouldn’t happen but after the death of her mother her emotions were all over the place and quite possibly believed H8 could do just that. Causing her more stress ergo making her ill. If he did make such a statement, this too would have added to Anne’s stress to bear a son, which was to be honest her only hope of survival, failure would mean the end and she knew it too. The tilt yard accident (yet again) added more stress and we all know what happened from here on in.
When exactly did Mary Submit to her father’s will? Was it before Fitzroy’s death or after?
Whatever killed both Fitzroy and Edward, was very rapid as both boys were reasonably fit and healthy just a few months before their deaths. Edward had been on a summer progress in 1552 and I don’t think he returned to London until the end of October, It was only by about April or May that Edward started getting ill, from there on in it’s was down hill rapidily. I’m guessing it was the same with Fitzroy.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
4:12 pm
February 24, 2010
Mary signed the oath on June 22nd 1536.
I see what you’re saying. I thought you meant Mary was ill unto death. Mary was ill after her Mother’s death. She suffered from strain and grief, and during this period there certainly was a lot of pressure put on her from many different people. The strain was greater for the 5 weeks after Anne died and before she signed the oath. This is when she realized life was not going back to normal because Anne was dead. Anne was not the obstacle in her way to happiness as she originally believed. If Henry threatened her with Richmond, there is no record of it. Henry ordered people to get her to sign the oath. Pressure was put on her from different sources and finally from Cromwell, who she thought very highly of. By the time they were done harassing her, she felt her life was in danger. Chapuys thought so, too.
8:38 pm
January 3, 2012
According to David Loades Mary was ill with menstual problems right from the word go, the added stress of her father constant pressure to get her to submit can’t have helped those issues much. I always thought it was Chapuys that finally got her to submit to H8’s will under the assurance that the Pope would forgive her utterly betraying not just her mother but the whole kit and caboodle concerning the Catholic doctorine when and more to the point at that time if she became Queen. I wonder if that was part of her reasoning to why one of her first acts on becomming Queen was to annul the great divorce, thereby trying to regain and restore all that she believed before she submitted to H8’s will. Would H8 have actually proceeded against her? I think if he had the pilgramage of grace riots would have looked like a day trip to Margate with reduced rates at the local knocking shop compared with what would follow if he had arrested Mary and tried her for treason. Regardless of the new faith Mary was beloved of the people just as K.O.A was.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
4:48 pm
February 24, 2010
Chapuys would take the credit, of course. Cromwell was exasperated with Mary. He finally sent her a letter that was uncompromising and threatening. “Thus with your folly, you undo yourself.” He told her she “deserved punishment”…and on it went. This pushed her to ask advice of Chapuys. With his advice or not, I think she was in no position to fight Henry any longer, and she knew it.
This is what Porter writes…”The prospect of abandonment by Cromwell and the likely fate of her supporters, if she continued to hold out, finally broke Mary’s resolve.” Then Chapuys told her to sign the articles without reading them. He did tell her that ‘papal understanding could be obtained through imperial influence at a later date.’
I don’t know what Henry would have done to her had Mary not submitted. According to his own law, by not signing the oath, she was committing treason. It was best that she sign. Chapuys, as well as those who bullied her, advised her correctly. I would hate to think what he would have done to her. She was in a very precarious position by not signing.
12:03 am
October 28, 2011
From what I read in Lauren Mackays bio of Chapuys I think that Chapuys was genuinely afraid for Mary’s life. I think Katherine’s death upset him a great deal and Anne’s death shocked him. In July he wrote to Charles complaining that what they had done to Anne was not honest, I think that indicates her death was still on his mind (why discuss it with Charles two months later?)
Perhaps he thought it is not a big step, from executing a wife to a daughter? If I were in his situation I would have thought the same thing.
4:06 pm
February 24, 2010
Chapuys considered getting Mary out of England. There is little doubt that the next step for Henry would have been to dispose of Mary. I hate to think it. Chapuys and Mary had it right. Henry had reached the end of understanding where she was concerned. Chapuys’ fears for Mary were right on the money.
Being a man of law, how could he think otherwise as far as the trials of Anne and the men accused with her, her brother, George, Henry Norris, William Brereton, Francis Weston, and Mark Smeaton were concerned. (I feel the need to write out their names, so as never to forget them)
5:29 pm
January 3, 2012
I didn’t know about Chapuys’s thoughts about getting Mary out of England. I have to have a bit of a giggle here, as history has a habit of doing the old Deja vu bit from time to time. If my lousy memory serves De Puebla was (secretly) making plans to get K.O.A out of England in H7’s reign. I believe De Puebla had sent a large sum of money back to Spain so that when K.O.A returned to Spain she wouldn’t be a burden on her father or something like that.
Chapuys’s idea to get Mary out of England also repeated itself later on in Mary’s life when the Emperor Charles offered her a get out of England free card during Edward’s reign.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
6:29 pm
February 24, 2010
Chapuys considered getting Mary out of England in 1534, but nothing came of it. It was decided it would be too difficult. Henry was sending political and religious opponents to their deaths. Elizabeth Barton was hung. The Carthusian monks were hung, drawn and quartered. Fisher was sent to the block. Thomas More was in Henry’s crosshairs. Henry was shocking the world with his killing spree. It would make anyone uneasy and fearful for Mary’s life.
Mary made plans to flee England in 1550. This time their was an actual plan which fell through. Another plan was put in place, but Mary herself backed out saying that her place was in England.