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12:33 pm
October 28, 2011
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I read a fiction book a little while ago about Mary Howard, which was average but it got me quite interested in her. What do you guys know about her? Information seems a little thin and I’m trying to hunt down any books about her.
She seems interesting enough for me, she served five of Henry’s Queens, married his son and became the object of Henry’s affections for a short while. And of course, she was the daughter of the infamous Norfolk. That is pretty much the extent of my knowledge.
1:54 pm
January 3, 2012
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Olga said
I read a fiction book a little while ago about Mary Howard, which was average but it got me quite interested in her. What do you guys know about her? Information seems a little thin and I’m trying to hunt down any books about her.
She seems interesting enough for me, she served five of Henry’s Queens, married his son and became the object of Henry’s affections for a short while. And of course, she was the daughter of the infamous Norfolk. That is pretty much the extent of my knowledge.
Are you talking about the book “Secrets of the Tudor Court” Olga? As it goes I’m just re reading it. I always read a book 2 or 3 times just to make sure I’ve not missed anything.. The only exception being that I never ever want to see the Virgin’s Lover by SWMNBN ever again..
Mary Howard is another one of the Tudor Mysteries. She may or may not have been at court and been a lady in waiting to 5 Queens, but it does seem strange as you have said that we know so little about her. She was married to Henry Fitzroy, in the book it’s described the marriage was perhaps a happy one but as they were never really together in the fullest sence of the word as Husband and Wife I’m guessing their marriage was more platonic in nature.. The Author given that she has used as most non fictional Authors generally do, poetic and outrageous licence at times, this book wasn’t too bad and some of the things mentioned could well be true. Such as the King ordering Henry Fitzroy to be poisoned, although I don’t believe that Henry Fitzroy was poisoned. For the most part what has been written about Norfolk in the book I believe it’s possible he was just as black as he’s been painted (I hate the odious little runt). It was and is well know that he treated his wife with apsolute complete contempt and disregard and wasn’t beyond giving her a beating every now and again, or in this case getting his servants to clout her one as well as locking her up with no regard to her health or wellbeing. We look at that now as being completely abborant, but back then it was perfectly exceptable, for a husband to beat his wife. Norfolk then carried on his affair with Bess Holland without so much as a by or leave or any guilty feelings about the way he was treating his wife.
Like you I would like to find out more about Mary as she sounds a very interesting person, but to be honest she must have been a very minor person at court and the only thing we do know about her is her marriage to Fitzroy, and at one time she was considered to become Henry’s 7th wife if K.P fell.
I must say I did enjoy the book.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
1:57 pm
January 3, 2012
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What was the name of the book Olga I’d like to read that one?. Silly me thought you said non fiction.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
2:24 pm
October 28, 2011
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Yep that’s the one Bo. I didn’t love it, but it was interesting. To be honest I think had she pushed the poisoning theory a bit further the book would have been less wishy-washy, she didn’t really run with it. But it got me very interested in her.
So far I can only find her mentioned in the book on Henry Fitzroy by Beverly Murphy, which I have. You know I like to collect several books on a particular person and read them in a “block” so to speak so I will have to look for some more. She might be mentioned in the two books out on Surrey but one of them is $75, I’ll get the Jessie Childs one on Surrey and try to find the other one used. Her brother seems interesting too of course, but I want to try and find out more about her.
Kelly Hart’s book on Henry’s mistresses mentions her but that wasn’t a great book.
Now apparently Henry wouldn’t let them consummate the marriage, so when it came to her jointure/pension, Henry was holding off saying the marriage hadn’t been consummated therefore she wasn’t entitled to anything.
8:40 pm
January 3, 2012
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Although leaving the poisoning theory of Henry Fitzroy up in the air as she did it makes the whole subject debatable.. Was Henry Fitzroy poisoned, because of Henry’s jealousy? Anne was blamed for Fitzroy’s death although he didn’t die until 1537, some people at Henry’s court certainly believe that Henry junior was poisoned by slow acting poison administered by Anne when she found out she was pregnant late in 1535, and I think Henry himself blamed her too, but if this was the case I believe Henry’s motives for blaming Anne were purely to convince himself he was right in chopping her up.
If you think about it and take the poisoning of Fitzroy seriously the Seymours had just as much to gain if not more, from Fitzroy’s death. No one could have possibly known that Jane would give birth to a son and heir or that she would even die as a result. But what if Jane had given birth to a daughter?, Henry’s only son although illigetimate was dead, therefore the throne would have been in a real muddle when Henry died.
If it was poison that killed Henry Fitzroy, whomever poisoned him was taking a terrible risk, one that did pay off, but it could quite of easily gone the other way.
The Seymours were afraid of the Howards influence at court and with Norfolk’s daughter married to Fitzroy anything could and would have happened upon Henry’s death if Fitzroy had lived and Jane had bore a girl. Perhaps too Henry was afraid of the Howard’s influence and felt that they were basically getting too big for their breeches,hose and boots, so by preventing Fitzroy and Mary Howard from consumating their marriage he was also sending a message to Norfolk by saying “Listen Pal you may be the most senior Duke in England but I am King and your’ll do as you are bloody well told and I will decide who is going to rule after me not you ok”..
If Jane had had a girl when Henry died it could well be argued by some that Fitzroy was his heir, because Mary although being eldest was declared like Elizabeth to be illigitmate, Fitzroy was a bastard that’s true but Henry did acknowledge him and gave him a household and education befitting his station in life. He was also of course a boy, which would have taken presidence over Mary anyway legitimate or not. If Fitzroy had lived and taken the throne it would have been apsolute chaos and right in the middle of it would be Norfolk, schemeing and plotting his way to the top…
Personally I think Fitzroy just sucummbed to some sort of tersian fever which was around at the time. Unless evidence turns up to the contrary I think we can just take Fitzroy’s death of being just one of those things..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
3:41 am
April 1, 2011
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There were several articles a few years back about Mary Fitzroy and her role in creating the Devonshire manuscript. Obviously they focus on that aspect of Mary’s life, but if you’re interested, Olga, I can e-mail them to you. Here’s a very short bio of her:
Susan Higginbotham
http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/
8:43 am
October 28, 2011
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Lovely, thanks so much Susan.
2:30 am
November 22, 2011
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Olga said
So far I can only find her mentioned in the book on Henry Fitzroy by Beverly Murphy, which I have. You know I like to collect several books on a particular person and read them in a “block” so to speak so I will have to look for some more. She might be mentioned in the two books out on Surrey but one of them is $75, I’ll get the Jessie Childs one on Surrey and try to find the other one used. Her brother seems interesting too of course, but I want to try and find out more about her.
Kelly Hart’s book on Henry’s mistresses mentions her but that wasn’t a great book.
Olga, what did you think of beverly Mitchell’s “Bastard Prince: Henry VIII’s Lost Son”?
For me it was an eye-opener, not only on Henry Fitroy’s political significance, but also on the behind the scenes manoevering of Thomas Howard to gain/maintain political influence and has helped me to understand what motivated his actions. Mitchell dispelled some of my illusions on his relationships with his daughter, Mary and her relationship with her father and her brother, Henry. I was not aware that she worked tirelessly to have her father released from the Tower during Edward’s reign and that he must have been fond of her, leaving her £500 in his will. I didn’t know that she had been granted custody of Surrey’s children and after her accession Mary I left her out in the cold because she had been an ally of Anne Boleyn.
I’d love to know more about Mary Howard. Did you manage to get hold any books that shed some light on Mary Howard?
Olga said
Now apparently Henry wouldn’t let them consummate the marriage, so when it came to her jointure/pension, Henry was holding off saying the marriage hadn’t been consummated therefore she wasn’t entitled to anything.
After Fitroy’s death, Henry VIII wriggled out of giving Mary her rightful entitlements and Mary and her father had to fight tooth and nail for years to have the king give her a pension and some property. The poor woman didn’t get much either, did she? A small pension and a few pitiful grants that didn’t reflect her status as a Duchess.
9:03 am
April 9, 2011
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Ooh there is a biography on the illegitimate son? How did I miss this? I feel I need to get this to make sure my Tudor collection is closer to covering all the personalities.
10:48 am
November 22, 2011
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Bill1978 said
Ooh there is a biography on the illegitimate son? How did I miss this? I feel I need to get this to make sure my Tudor collection is closer to covering all the personalities.
Bill, I hope you enjoy Beverly Murphy’s “Bastard Prince”. It’s well worth the read.
8:49 pm
November 22, 2011
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Mariette said
Olga said
So far I can only find her mentioned in the book on Henry Fitzroy by Beverly Murphy, which I have. You know I like to collect several books on a particular person and read them in a “block” so to speak so I will have to look for some more. She might be mentioned in the two books out on Surrey but one of them is $75, I’ll get the Jessie Childs one on Surrey and try to find the other one used. Her brother seems interesting too of course, but I want to try and find out more about her.
Kelly Hart’s book on Henry’s mistresses mentions her but that wasn’t a great book.Olga, what did you think of beverly Mitchell’s “Bastard Prince: Henry VIII’s Lost Son”? …
I’d love to know more about Mary Howard. Did you manage to get hold any books that shed some light on Mary Howard?
Sorry Olga, 
that should be what did you think of Beverly Murphy’s “Bastard Prince: Henry VIII’s Lost Son”?
1:25 am
October 28, 2011
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I thought it was excellent Mariette. I doubt there’s going to be a book which discusses Mary Howard in-depth though (unless Amberley is eavesdropping ).
I just saw her mentioned in the Robert Hutchinson book I read (Last days of Henry VIII) where he was discussing Surrey’s plot to get her into Henry’s bed.
I haven’t read the Jessie Child’s book on Surrey yet, there is another one on him I have to track down which is out-of-print by William Sessions (I think). Your best bet is to read books on he family I suppose, there is also one by a small University publisher on Thomas Howard called The Ebbs and Flows of Fortune which I’ve ordered. It’s not cheap unfortunately, none of the University press titles are, they don’t print a lot and it costs them a lot to print them.
The Beverly Murphy book is still in print Bill.
6:25 am
November 22, 2011
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Olga said
I thought it was excellent Mariette. I doubt there’s going to be a book which discusses Mary Howard in-depth though (unless Amberley is eavesdropping ).
I just saw her mentioned in the Robert Hutchinson book I read (Last days of Henry VIII) where he was discussing Surrey’s plot to get her into Henry’s bed.
I haven’t read the Jessie Child’s book on Surrey yet, there is another one on him I have to track down which is out-of-print by William Sessions (I think). Your best bet is to read books on he family I suppose, there is also one by a small University publisher on Thomas Howard called The Ebbs and Flows of Fortune which I’ve ordered. It’s not cheap unfortunately, none of the University press titles are, they don’t print a lot and it costs them a lot to print them.The Beverly Murphy book is still in print Bill.
Thanks,Olga Just ordered the Jessie Childs book for £1.21 from Abe Books, bargain!
I hope you’ll enjoy “The Ebbs and Flows of Fortune”. Louise recommended it on the forum a while back . I found it a bit heavy going but worth reading – packed with information and well-wrtten but a lot of names and dates to take in. There were way too may “Thomas Howard’s” in the 16th century
The William Sessions book on Surrey is really expensive. I hope Marilyn Roberts’ book on the Howards won’t be too much longer…
9:42 am
October 28, 2011
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Oh good you’ll have to let me know. I just realised I have a fair bit to squeeze in before the end of the year so I had better get reading.
I love abe, it’s worth putting “wants” on there so you get an email when new things are listed. I got a really hard to find Stephen Gardiner bio for $40 and it usually lists upwards of $150. I still have to read that too!
1:40 pm
January 3, 2012
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Olga said
Oh good you’ll have to let me know. I just realised I have a fair bit to squeeze in before the end of the year so I had better get reading.
I love abe, it’s worth putting “wants” on there so you get an email when new things are listed. I got a really hard to find Stephen Gardiner bio for $40 and it usually lists upwards of $150. I still have to read that too!
Little bit of Trivia Stephen Gardiner was born and brought up not very far from where I am from originally.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
9:48 pm
November 22, 2011
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Olga said
Oh good you’ll have to let me know. I just realised I have a fair bit to squeeze in before the end of the year so I had better get reading.
I love abe, it’s worth putting “wants” on there so you get an email when new things are listed. I got a really hard to find Stephen Gardiner bio for $40 and it usually lists upwards of $150. I still have to read that too!
Olga, I love Abe Books too. It was you, I think who recommended it in the first place
I’ve never warmed to the odious, self-serving religious fanatic, Stephen Gardiner. If he had any redeeming features other than his intellect and legal expertise it would be a surprise to me! Even Henry loathed him and didn’t trust him but found him useful.
Good luck with your reading, I’m a bit behind with my reading too and need to get a move on…
12:26 am
October 28, 2011
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Where was that Bo?
He’s not my favourite historical figure Mariette, I have always thought his most redeeming quality was that he managed not to get executed. I’m a book collector, so my history collection is getting rather larger than it needs to be LOL. I can also blame Philippa Gregory and her large wallet, she always puts an interesting range in her reading lists which include some very rare books. I have bought a couple of quite expensive books on court fools thanks to her.
I have a War of the Roses spreadsheet happening. This will also be useful for my birthday 
But really it’s got about 40 books on it already, I can never have just the one book on someone if I can help it. I’m always worried I’ll have read the “wrong” thing if you know what I mean.
12:43 am
November 22, 2011
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Olga said
He’s not my favourite historical figure Mariette, I have always thought his most redeeming quality was that he managed not to get executed. .
I’m a book collector, so my history collection is getting rather larger than it needs to be LOL. I can also blame Philippa Gregory and her large wallet, she always puts an interesting range in her reading lists which include some very rare books. I have bought a couple of quite expensive books on court fools thanks to her.
I understand completely, lol My bookshelves are overflowing and my wishlist is getting out of control!
I can never have just the one book on someone if I can help it. I’m always worried I’ll have read the “wrong” thing if you know what I mean
Sadly, I do
10:04 pm
November 18, 2010
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Mariette said
Olga said
He’s not my favourite historical figure Mariette, I have always thought his most redeeming quality was that he managed not to get executed. .
I’m a book collector, so my history collection is getting rather larger than it needs to be LOL. I can also blame Philippa Gregory and her large wallet, she always puts an interesting range in her reading lists which include some very rare books. I have bought a couple of quite expensive books on court fools thanks to her.
I understand completely, lol My bookshelves are overflowing and my wishlist is getting out of control!
I can never have just the one book on someone if I can help it. I’m always worried I’ll have read the “wrong” thing if you know what I mean
Sadly, I do
My name is Anyanka and I don’t have a book problem…I have a lack of space problem. D’Hoffryn bought me a tablet with Kindle on it for my birthday. I have already loaded over 30 books in little more than a month.
Yeah and I’m the same if there’s more than one book about a person, Gotta catchem’em all!
It's always bunnies.
