Sharon said

The evidence to prove that Katherine Howard and Thomas Culpeper were lovers, is slim to none, but IIRC Jane did testify that she believed they had made love. There is testimony from the couple that claims otherwise, although Thomas implied the intention was there. That leaves the subject open for debate, I suppose. I have no idea whether they did or did not, and it certainly didn’t seem to matter at the time. In the end, all three of these people were trying to save themselves.

It wasn’t only Jane though, IIRC one of Kathryn’s other ladies mentioned that she thought the quen and Culpper had “passed out”( ie org*smed) , though I need to find the cite for that.

This is K.H’s letter (Well Duh you have all probably seen it 100 times by now) But it really doesn’t sit with me. Something just doesn’t seen to ring right and it seems as it it has been cobbled together, and added too. Purely an opinion..
Master Culpeper,
I heartily recommend me unto you, praying you to send me word how that you do. It was showed me that you was sick, the which thing troubled me very much till such time that I hear from you praying you to send me word how that you do, for I never longed so much for a thing as I do to see you and to speak with you, the which I trust shall be shortly now. That which doth comfortly me very much when I think of it, and when I think again that you shall depart from me again it makes my heart die to think what fortune I have that I cannot be always in your company. It my trust is always in you that you will be as you have promised me, and in that hope I trust upon still, praying you that you will come when my Lady Rochford is here for then I shall be best at leisure to be at your commandment, thanking you for that you have promised me to be so good unto that poor fellow my man which is one of the griefs that I do feel to depart from him for then I do know no one that I dare trust to send to you, and therefore I pray you take him to be with you that I may sometime hear from you one thing. I pray you to give me a horse for my man for I had much ado to get one and therefore I pray send me one by him and in so doing I am as I said afor, and thus I take my leave of you, trusting to see you shortly again and I would you was with me now that you might see what pain I take in writing to you.
Yours as long as life endures,
Katheryn.
One thing I had forgotten and that is to instruct my man to tarry here with me still for he says whatsomever you bid him he will do it.

The first sentence (I heartedly recommend me unto you, praying to send me word how you do) I can accept as being possible her words, mearly asking how he was like anyone else would. (It was showed me that you were sick) To me at least despite K.H’s lack of education I don’t think this could be constued as proper English. the in the next sentence she asks the same thing (the which thing troubled me very much till such time that I hear from you praying you to send me word how that you do) (for I never longed so much for a thing as I do to see you and to speak with you, the which I trust shall be shortly now.) What is this “Thing” she longs for? also the word “which” is used twice in the same sentence.
(That which doth comfortly me very much when I think of it, and when I think again that you shall depart from me again it makes my heart die to think what fortune I have that I cannot be always in your company.) Very bad English and doesn’t seem to make a lot of sence to me. 3 thinks in this sentence?
It my trust is always in you that you will be as you have promised me, and in that hope I trust upon still, praying you that you will come when my Lady Rochford is here for then I shall be best at leisure to be at your commandment, thanking you for that you have promised me to be so good unto that poor fellow my man which is one of the griefs that I do feel to depart from him for then I do know no one that I dare trust to send to you, and therefore I pray you take him to be with you that I may sometime hear from you one thing.
Who is this poor fellow my man? she is also taking about this poor fellow my man in present tence not past tence.. who is it that she wants taken with you and again the word “Thing”

I pray you to give me a horse for my man for I had much ado to get one and therefore I pray send me one by him and in so doing I am as I said afor, and thus I take my leave of you, trusting to see you shortly again and I would you was with me now that you might see what pain I take in writing to you.

Why should she need a horse for her man, in the next bit she uses past tence not presence tence which is used in the first half, then back to present tence. Who is him? What has she said afor? The last bit I can possible believe she might have written, but certainly not for Culpepper.
One thing I had forgotten and that is to instruct my man to tarry here with me still for he says whatsomever you bid him he will do it.

What is up with the last sentence? she is saying that whoever “he” is should command “her man” to stay with her, but then says “he” will do as you tell him. To me that is a little bit of an oxymoron, and doesn’t make any sence at all.
To me at least I think the letter the true letter that was written to Culpepper was some thing quite simple such I heard you were sick, get well soon.
The letter to me smacks of being doctored somehow either by Cramner or as daft as this sounds Mary Lassells or her brother maybe even a colaberation between them. K.H was certainly not as educated as either COA AB or KP, but I don’t believe that this letter could have been written by her, at all. The Duchess was I believe was very lax in her duty to the girls in her care but she surely would have seen to it that at the very least Katherine would have had a basic grounding in the fundimental skills of grammer?
K.H was guilty of having an affair before her marriage but I don’t believe for one moment that she and Culpepper actually had sex, the intent was certainly there, but that all it ever was a fantasy.

Anyanka said

Sharon said

The evidence to prove that Katherine Howard and Thomas Culpeper were lovers, is slim to none, but IIRC Jane did testify that she believed they had made love. There is testimony from the couple that claims otherwise, although Thomas implied the intention was there. That leaves the subject open for debate, I suppose. I have no idea whether they did or did not, and it certainly didn’t seem to matter at the time. In the end, all three of these people were trying to save themselves.

It wasn’t only Jane though, IIRC one of Kathryn’s other ladies mentioned that she thought the quen and Culpper had “passed out”( ie org*smed) , though I need to find the cite for that.

It was Margaret Morton, who along with Katherine Tylney were questioned about the 1541 Progress and some of the events in Lincoln and Pontefract (Weir, \THe Six Wives of Henry VIII pages 460-3).

Boleyn said

But surely both of the woman just assumed or took it fr granted that K.H and T.C had actually done a bit of horizontal jogging?

It’s very likely IMO in light of M.L’s testimony it was assumed that K.H and T.C had been playing tiddly winks. If there was no other evidence other than bedroom snickering and gossip how did Cramner come to the conclusion that they had been playing tiddly winks.

Tylney, Morton and another of KH’s chamberers Mrs Luffkyn had all been refused entrance to Kathryn’s bedchamber by Jane Rochford. Tyleny nad Morton also passed messages between KH and JR. Plus KH was seen watching Culpepper through a window by Morton.

Morton also mentioned that KH’s room was locked with only her and JR in there when Henry paid a surprise visit for his nuptuals.THe inferance being that a third person, possibly Culpepper was also present. On another occasson, the “passed out” one, KH had been with Culpeppper for 5 or 6 hours.

How much was what was in fact a true affair and how much was ” OMG how am I going to get out of this with my head’ is of course supposition.

Boleyn said

Katherine Tynley now then this is a good one to mention Anyanka as I have been looking at a close up picture of the pendant that is around the neck of one of the supposed pictures of K.H. it could well Agnes Tynley in which case one of the pictures porported to be K.H is in fact Katherine Tynley. Not a lot is known about Margeret Morton, but their was a woman called Margeret Morton in the household of Agnes Tynley, but she had died had died in 1507. So this Magaret Morton is most likely to be a descendant of John Morton, who was in service or had dealings with H7. Which means that Margaret would have been in her late 30’s possibly and I would find it strange that she would have been taken into K.H’s household at such an age. I could well be barking up the wrong tree here of course.

In those time, far too many people, especially women, were born lived and died without being noted down anywhere. Not even the most noble of families noted down the birthdates of each of thier children.

It wouldn’t be that unusual for an older lady to be part of the queen’s household. The household wasn’t just a group of young ladies waiting to be married off. Older women could be single, widowed or married and still part of the inner circle of the queen’s intimates.

Thank you Anyanka
I did actually forgot about older people being in court. There a accounts of older pages and runners ( In court Messagers) and it would make perfect sence for them to be there too. In some cases at least they were guarenteed of a roof over their heads and food in their bellies when they had no where else to go. Plus as daft as I seems their age and wisdom may have been of use to some of the new pages and ladies in the court.
However back to K.H/Culpepper supposed guilt. I find it very difficult to accept that the only evidence against her is based purely on hearsay and speculation. How can anyone say that she believed that K.H and Culpepper had had sex, based on the way they had looked at each other?
I look at the chipmunks with love doesn’t mean I’m having torrid affair with them.
I knew about her K.H having her door locked on the day Henry came rolling down the palace corridors to visit her. But surely she was entitled to a bit of privacy now and again, and it’s not as if she was on her own at that point. J.B and a few others were with her, and just how did Margaret Morton spy on K.H and Culpepper through the window? Was she outside in the courtyard on a ladder?
The more I get to know K.H the more I believe she was innocent of any jiggery pokery with Culpepper. She was certainly guilty of messing with Dereham but I believe that when Dereham went away whether he was sent away or went on his own volution she had perhaps tired of him.

This is the literal translation to what Treason actually is
Treason. basically is this the crime of betraying one’s country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.

I find it very difficult to see how Culpepper’s words that he wanted to go jogging with K.H to keep fit, could be constued as 1 betraying his country. 2 trying to kill the sovereign(she says with a great big smile on her face, with a mental image of a spade in her hand and big hole with fat arse lay in it) or 3 overthrowing the government. Of course it might just be that I am applying 21st century Logic to a 16th century issue.

I still feel that even if K.H had admitted pre-contract with Dereham, it would have perhaps saved her life, but Dereham and Culpepper were dead men, so there would be no happily ever after for K.H, she would have been put in a nunnery and maybe even bumped off on the sly at some point.

K.H was silly to allow herself to let her heart rule her head, but what can you expect, she was a giddy girl, a teenager.

Boleyn said

K.H was silly to allow herself to let her heart rule her head, but what can you expect, she was a giddy girl, a teenager.

Can we stop with the infantilising of Katherine Howard? Calling Katherine a “giddy girl”, or a silly teenager, just disregards her entirely as immature, stupid, naive, irresponsible, and/or capricious. In truth, all evidence seems to point against that.

We don’t know why she did what she did, or even exactly what it was that she did, so it’s very hard to make a case for or against her making “a foolish mistake”: doubtless, her behaviour was inappropriate for her station, given the political and religious climate of the court during her reign, but not necessarily a crime. Whether she had sex with Culpeper or not, we can’t dismiss her actions as being those of a little girl who was in over her head and had no idea how to navigate court life. It’s easy to imagine that Katherine was utterly lost and without guidance at court but in truth she seems to have been capable, and responsible, and to an extent ambitious and determined, right up to her death. Rather than a silly teenage with no idea what was happening around her, Katherine appears more composed, and certainly more clever than that.

Why she did whatever she did with Culpeper we cannot feasibly predict (at least not without pages and pages of analysis and evaluation?) however what we can be assured of is that Katherine was not simply “in over her head” from the start, as people like to claim.