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1:42 pm
February 16, 2009
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In a comment on my recent post on Thomas Culpeper, Nasim said:-
“Also – just a random thought – but it is worth remembering that Culpeper was probably around ten years older than Katherine. When the pair are depicted in various productions, which is in itself rare, they are frequently depicted as of a similar age – both youthful and reckless. This was certainly the case in ‘Henry VIII’ (2003) staring Emily Blunt, and a young actor played Culpeper in the film, ‘Henry VIII and His Six Wives’ (1972). But if we agree with the argument that Katherine was born around c.1523/4, and Culpeper was born in c.1514, then he was around ten years older than her. He had also been at court for sometime prior to Katherine’s marriage to the King. Though he had entered the Privy Chamber by 1537, he had been at court before then, including during Anne Boleyn’s queenship. So he would have witnessed the downfall of Anne Boleyn and her alleged ‘lovers’. And yet despite his experiences, despite seeing Henry Norris, a member of the Privy Chamber, destroyed owing to his supposed indecent behaviour with a queen consort, he still acted recklessly with Katherine. Had he learnt nothing?!”
Now, this got me wondering. If Culpeper was that much older than Catherine, was known to have a real way with women, had raped a woman etc. etc. perhaps he was manipulating Catherine, perhaps he seduced her. I know that it “takes 2 to tango” blah blah but Catherine strikes me as very immature and although she had had sexual experiences I'm not sure she had real world experience. Did this powerful man manage to manipulate her? Just a thought.
As far as motive is concerned, it does seem likely that he thought that Henry may not live much longer and was waiting for him to pop his clogs so that he could marry Catherine, who would be a rich young woman. His seduction, whatever the risks, could have paid off.
What do you think?
Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn
6:57 pm
March 12, 2010
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I think it's definitely possible that TC could have taken advantage of Katherine considering his age and (debated) past. Yes, Catherine had had sexual experiences, but I think that was due to a lack of supervision and guidance. I mean, if we're honest with ourselves, we would probably all have made and would be making many more mistakes during our teenage years had no one really been concerned with what we were doing. I think Catherine was impressionable and naive…I've always felt a particular sympathy for her.
7:22 pm
June 20, 2009
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It is possible that he took advantage of her. He must have seen how lonely she was, and dove right in. It was probably easy for him, as she was young, lonely, and married to an older man. He was giving her the attention she was not receiving from her husband. As sad as it is, Thomas must have known what he was doing. And I don't think he cared too much about it.
Catherine was raised in that reckless household, and probably did not receive the proper ettiquette education most young ladies received. She loved to have a good time, but in the end, it destroyed her. I feel bad for her, she did not deserve to die. Henry was having his mid-life crisis, and reality set in when he realized he was not the strapping young man that he used to be. She would've been better off in a convent, rather than losing her head.
Let not my enemies sit as my jury
9:25 am
February 24, 2010
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Culpeper could have easily manipulated Catherine and I'm sure he did. He took complete advantage of her lonliness. But I'm not so sure he had marriage in mind. He was a reckless man who thought he could get what he wanted because of his position at court; and he took advantage of his King's kindness towards him at every turn. When he was convicted of rape and murder, Henry stepped in and saved him from the death penalty. You would think he would have been grateful to his King. Instead he cuckholds the man. I don't believe he was thinking of anything other than bedding Catherine. This guy thought he could talk his way out of any situation. When he blamed the whole thing on Catherine, I believe he was thinking he would get away with the affair. That he would be forgiven. He obviously wasn't thinking he would ever get convicted and beheaded.
Catherine was certainly not in love with this guy. She certainly wasn't thinking about another marriage. She thought that if she blamed Culpeper for the whole thing and claimed he had tried to force himself on her, he would be punished and she would skate. You would think she would have known better. I would like to think that if Catherine had survived Henry, she would not have married Culpeper or anyone else for quite a while. I would hope she would have enjoyed her freedom, her jewels, and her properties.
6:42 pm
April 6, 2010
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Assuming that we subscribe to the theory that Thomas Culpeper was a possible rapist/murderer, I wonder if it was possible, as I read in one account of Henry's wives (Antonia Fraser?) that their “indiscretions” – whatever level these were truly at – were so blatant, because it was all part of the thrill?
Kathryn could have, unfortunately, had a “thing” for a bad boy. It can happen with young, inexperienced, starstruck girls, that they become attracted to the worst sort of man. I have a neighbor who is a nice gal, but her live in boyfriend, the father of her daughter, is a total scuzzbucket.
Kathryn was lonely or bored, and she was a lively young lady, probably with raging hormones. Along comes handsome bad boy Culpeper, and she would have had a difficult time resisting, if she even could. Yes, what he was suggesting was wrong, but he made it seem so exciting! Culpeper himself could have been total amoral, or maybe even sociopathic. After all, if rape/murder didn't seem to bother him, except for being caught, then fooling about with the King's hot new wife probably didn't bother him either, even though the King had been nice enough to get let him off the rape/murder rap.
Maybe Culpeper had somehow appealed to Lady Rochford in the same way, somehow. After all, it had been how long since her husband's death? She likely had hormonal issues to deal with as well, and the idea of maybe being naughty enough to watch Culpeper with Kathryn, or possibly even a three way could have been too much for her, too, hence her aiding and abetting.
From the sound of the interrogation reports, Kathryn was insistent that Culpeper tried to seduce her her, though she didn't at first admit to any wrongdoing on her own part. Could it have been that Culpeper decided he would take Kathryn down with him? This was something that would really hurt Henry, as kind of the final word, which would be a final insult from beyond the grave, such as it were.
One thing another writer – again, I can't remember which one – suggests that Archbishop Cranmer might have boxed Kathryn in, and maneuvered her to deny a precontract with Francis Dereham, which could have saved her, because he wanted to get rid of the conservative/Catholic influence on Henry through Kathryn. However, I cannot remember the reference, and that sounds out of character for Cranmer.
Someone who was lucky to keep her head throughout this was Kathryn's step-grandmother, who did nothing to provide discipline, moral, or even practical guidance. “Just because he sets your farthingale to smoldering doesn't mean he's worth anything honey.”
What I find really unfair is that ALL of the blame has rested on Kathryn, alone, as though she were the only one who had done wrong, if she even had with Culpeper. The Duke of Norfolk must spent some serious time with his lips attached to Henry's butt to save himself.
6:45 am
July 9, 2009
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Karen Lyndsey also talks about this in her book on the wives. She says that the very damning letter that Katherine sent Culpeper could be interpreted as her politely trying to hold him off. Once everything came out, Katherine admitted (I believe. I might be wrong about this. I forget.) that she had slept with Dereham before her marriage to the king. If you're admitting to one, you may as well admit to the other if it's true. But both the queen and Culpeper denied a physical relationship. Culpeper pretty much threw her under the bus. His attitude here, plus the fact that he had the audacity to try to cuckold the king, plus the fact that he was a rapist and murderer, leads me to believe he was pursuing Katherine and she wasn't all that interested.
Allow me a bit of a feminist rant here. Katherine's situation as I see it was like the scene in Pretty Woman where Richard Gere's friend tries to rape Julia Roberts. Some men feel that because a woman has a past, she is somehow “fair game.” There is still a stigma in many places and in many people's minds that some women who get raped are “asking for it” by the way they dress or the fact that they flirt. I worked for a while as a hostess in the Hawaiian Tropic Zone restaurant that used to be in Times Square and remember the time a patron grabbed my butt while I was working. It still makes me feel ashamed. I also got a manager fired because he would throw pencils on the floor and make me bend over and clean them up in my bikini. The atmosphere there was supposed to evoke the tropics, not the sexually charged atmosphere of a strip club, but the fact that we had to wear bathing suits made us, again, “fair game,” in some people's eyes. After I quit there were revelations of all kinds of sexual harassment and even the rape of one manager by another. When I think of Katherine Howard, all this comes back to me because she was probably in a similar situation. “She has a past? That means she's just a sl*t and therefore anyone can have her.” If people still think like this today, imagine how much more prevalent the attitude was in Tudor times, when it wasn't un-PC to say women were the property of men.
Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.
9:51 am
August 12, 2009
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That's a good point, Melissa. Maybe rumors of her past were circulating due to the presences of Joan Bulmer and Francis Dereham in Kathryn's household. It was expected that someone who had done well would remember their family and friends and pass out perks and positions. I frequently hear people wonder why she would be stupid enough to appoint a former lover to her household, but there might have been some blackmail involved. After all, she'd been pretty open with her relationship with Dereham (even calling him 'husband'), but when she got appointed to AOC's household, she skipped merrily away, leaving him abruptly and without apparent regret. He might have been angry about that and felt he deserved some compensation.
And it's been said that Joan Bulmer, also from the Duchess' household, essentially blackmailed her way into Kathryn's household as well. I can imagine Kathryn quickly finding herself in way over her head, not knowing what to do and being frightened and resentful. And along comes a pretty man to distract her and flirt with her, until she realizes he wants something, too. It wasn't like she could complain about being blackmailed when the information could make her lose her head. She was only a teenager and didn't know what to do. I feel sorry for her.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
9:55 am
August 12, 2009
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Melissa said:
Karen Lyndsey (…) says that the very damning letter that Katherine sent Culpeper could be interpreted as her politely trying to hold him off.
It might also have been a naïve girl trying her hand at the whole 'courtly love' thing. And botching it.
"Don't knock at death's door.
Ring the bell and run. He hates that."
10:18 am
March 12, 2010
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I think there was definitely blackmail involved with Joan Bulmer and Francis Dereham. They took advantage of Katherine's rise and posed a major threat to her reputation if she didn't oblige them. Maybe the letter WAS an attempt to hold TC off or a try at courtly love. And I definitely agree that Katherine must've seemed fair game. Perhaps the letter was Katherine's attempt to let TC know that their love could only be a courtly one.
I'm glad in this day and age people have more sympathy for Katherine Howard (and Anne Boleyn) than they seem to have had in times past.
