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2:39 pm
December 5, 2009
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Boleyn, it was Anne who paid for Henry Carey’s education, not Henry VIII. The King never accepted any responsibility for either of Mary’s children.
4:49 pm
January 3, 2012
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Thanks Louise. I stand corrected. So what happened after Anne was Executed (Murdered) who took over the funding of Henry Junior and Catherine Junior Education? Mary wasn’t in a position to pay for it, in fact Mary’s whole life style I should imagine was one of meagre and very frugal means..
Although having said that, She still inherited Hever on her father’s death, but surely what little money was brough in from the estate etc. would have 1 payed off any of T.B debts he owed on his death and 2 perhaps paying off some of her own debts.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
7:14 pm
December 5, 2009
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George Boleyn had an income of £100 per annum as a courtier, which was considered a good income. Mary Boleyn had a pension of £200 a year. She was not poverty striken. The difference was that when you lived at court you had accomodation and food paid for by the King, which is why Mary had a lower standard of living when she left court with Stafford. However, he also had earnings. They were not on the breadline.
I don’t know who initially met Henry’s education fees, but Thomas Boleyn may have had a hand in it. When Thomas died Mary inherited some properties , including Rochford, but not Hever. James Boleyn inherited Hever, and sold it to Henry shortly afterwards. Henry later granted it to Anne of Cleves.
1:58 pm
October 28, 2011
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Fie. I’ve just been attempting to skim through Sister Queens and I can’t find the reference. Julia Fox mentioned Henry taking care of Henry Carey”s education at some point. The book doesn’t have an index on the galley copy I’ve got on my e-reader so I am having trouble finding it again. I don’t think I imagined reading it in that book, it’s the only history book I read this month. I’ll try and check again.
Weir mentioned Henry possibly taking care of Catherine Carey through a small pension in her Mary Boleyn boo, but it’s been a while since I read it. If you haven’t read it it’s actually worth a read Boleyn, it’s not spectacular and fairly repetitive but it is reasonably comprehensive.
2:51 pm
January 3, 2012
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Thank you Louise. So it’s quite possible then that Mary did continue to pay for Henry Junior’s educatio after Anne was executed?
I always thought that Mary was more or less destitute after she married Stafford, but I guess I was wrong. I suppose she was considered poor in the terms of just how much she had when she had at court, but I see now she was just like most of us are today just managing to keep our heads above water if that makes sence..
Rumour has it that Henry wanted to press charges (Loosely worded) against Mary after Anne was shafted. I never understood why..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
2:40 am
May 16, 2012
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If Mary was dismissed by her family because of Henry’s discomfort, he sure didn’t mind considering using his relationship with her when trying to dissolve his marriage to sister Anne. 
Good points Boleyn, as usual. I have often wondered why Mary got the cold shoulder from her family when Henry got tired of her. I know they would have profited by having her in his bed, but it’s not like Henry was moving on to someone from another family. Any ideas from anyone? My mind is a muddle today. 
I wonder if Mary was given the cold shoulder by her family because of Henry. Henry may have felt a bit embarrassed having Mary at court since she had been his mistress, and he was always trying to prove his marriage to her sister, Anne, was justified. He could have been the one who showed a discomfort with Mary being at court. If he was, the Boleyn’s would not have much choice in the matter. If they thought Henry was showing any displeasure with Mary, they would have done whatever was necessary to make him happy. Mary would be out. Just a thought.
4:22 am
January 3, 2012
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I don’t think Henry knew what his head was doing, in for the most part in Henry’s life I think his hormones ruled his head. After Edward’s birth and Jane’s death his last 3 marriages were just wishful thinking controlling the hormones driving the controls in his head.
It does seem rather funny to me that Henry appealed to the Pope for a dispensation to marry Anne due to his prior relationship with Mary, and then used his prior relationship with Mary to get rid of Anne. The whole thing with the Boleyn’s reign seems to smack of some sort of French farce, with a lot of double entendres thrown in.
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
3:29 pm
December 5, 2009
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When Henry wanted to marry Catherine of Aragon he had to apply to the Pope for a dispensation to marry her because she had already been married to his brother, Arthur. When Henry wanted to divorce from Catherine and marry Anne he later applied to the Pope saying that the Pope had been wrong to grant the dispensation, and accused Catherine of lying when she said the marriage to Arthur had never been consumated. Not only was he a complete and utter hypocrite, he was also perfectly content to label his loyal wife as a liar.
He did exactly the same thing when he wanted to marry Anne, and despite his prior relationship with Mary, married Anne anyway. Yet when he wanted to rid himself of Anne, he again used the same argument, only this time using Mary Boleyn as the excuse. In other words Henry was a two faced hypocrite who was virtuous and God fearing when it suited his purposes, but overlooked the teachings of the bible when it didn’t suit his purposes. Depending on the weather, Henry wore God like a convenient jacket.
4:22 pm
February 24, 2012
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I agree with you Louise. Henry acted like spoiled brat most of the time. Always had to have his own way no matter how it made anyone else look. He may have been king, but I think he had a huge ego problem and only wanted to take responsibility for anything good that happened. If something didn’t turn out the way he wanted it was always someone else’s fault. I mean really! He was old enough to be KH’s father. I know it was common back then for young women to be married to older men, but why would Henry think that she’d want to be with a fat, smelly old man? The man had his head planted firmly in the sand sometimes. 
5:47 pm
January 3, 2012
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If Henry’s ego had been any bigger I think it could have quite easily strangled him.. He was an uncaring, spoilt, spiteful, vindictive, two faced liar hyprocrical git….
I sometimes think that if perrhaps he’d had a few good hard spankings and a good clip around the ear when younger he wouldn’t be such and unpleasent tyranical Rissole he turned out to be when older..
Here’s another little Henry description for you to have a giggle over.. Henry was a spawny eyed parrot faced wazzock……
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
6:50 pm
February 24, 2010
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Debbie Sue said
If Mary was dismissed by her family because of Henry’s discomfort, he sure didn’t mind considering using his relationship with her when trying to dissolve his marriage to sister Anne.
No he didn’t, did he? He was a hypocrite of the highest degree. He didn’t want people around him if they upset him, but later when he needed to use them for his own purposes, he had no qualms. Henry felt nothing for Mary by this time. Quite the opposite. She was an embarrassment to him.
He had to ask for dispensation to marry Anne due to his affair with Mary. Then when he wants to be rid of Anne he uses Mary as his excuse to get out of the marriage. Of course, he didn’t mind using Mary to get out of his marriage to Anne. He would have used anyone to accomplish his goal.
8:30 pm
January 3, 2012
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As strange as this might sound, please bear with me on this.. Is it possible that Mary was seen by Henry as a scapegoat when he wanted rid of Anne so blaming her for his marriage to Anne being illegal and incestious in the first place.. By the same token the Howards and her mum and dad blaming her for Anne’s failure in providing a Howard/Tudor heir to the throne.. Yeah I know I can see eye rolling going on and iron maidens being oiled up due to another one of my off the latch theories.
But it does seem very strange to me that Mary’s ill treatment (loosely worded) only seemed to get worse after Elizabeth’s birth. Mary and Anne had a sisterly rivalry only natural, but for the most part Anne did defend her sister to a certain degree. Before Elizabeth’s birth things were perhaps a little frosty with her parents and her Uncle Howard, but when Elizabeth had been born although Anne was bitterly disappointed at her failure and Henry although appearing outwardly happy that he had a daughter instead of the longed for son. Henry was fuming with disappointment at Anne’s failure. Why did Anne take over as guardian to Henry Junior? Was it Anne’s way of making sure Mary towed the line? Or perhaps had Anne planned to get Henry to name Henry Junior his heir after the children she bore Henry, if they died childless? Therefore holding on to the apsolute power she now had..
It seems to me as if Mary took the full displeasure of Elizabeth’s birth from her family and ever afterwards everything that went wrong was her fault.
I wonder if the child Anne miscarried in 1536 had lived and been a boy, would Mary be treated with the respect she once had, when she was Henry’s Mistress? After all she would now be the Aunt of the next King of England.
Mary’s marriage to Stafford must have upset the apple cart in more ways than one.. The fact that Stafford was a commoner I don’t think came it fully. Her marriage to Stafford basically meant that she could not be used by her family as a pawn in a game of marriage chess. Therefore cheating the family out of yet more power and wealth. Think about it Anne was Queen of England although there were few places in the known world at that time excepted that fact.. Henry was in trouble from the Pope, and the Spanish Emperor if the Pope gave his blessing to take back England by force Henry might not have had the money or the manpower to defeat such an attack, so how raise money quick and fast and get men and all engines of war fast? A marriage of course. Elizabeth was too little to be considered for marriage and as we know cradle betrothals rarely made it to the whole Church vows bit. Henry couldn’t afford to wait he needed an ally against what would be a giant Holy army. Therefore Mary was the closest to him that could be used as marriage fodder. Marry Mary to some Prostitant Prince and Bingo instant Army, money and all engines of war..
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
9:10 pm
December 5, 2009
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You don’t have a very high opinion of the Boleyns do you, Boleyn?
Firstly, I cannot see how logically Mary Boleyn could be blamed for Anne’s failure to have a son. Mary was used to provide Henry with a way of anulling his marriage to Anne. He followed the same pattern as he had with Catherine. He was a hypocrite who used any excuse he could. His affair with Mary gave him a lucky way out, which is her primary historical importance.
I don’t think Mary was mistreated by her family any more than any other Tudor woman. She was a woman, she was nothing, she had no respect and she had absolutely no importance whatsoever, even when she was having a sexual relationship with Henry. Her affair with Henry was not widely known and she did not have the recognition or respect of being the King’s mistress while the affair continued. I personally think his relationship with her was very short and I don’t believe her children were Henry’s, but that’s a different matter.
No one could have blamed Mary for Anne’s failure to have a Prince. In fact I doubt whether anyone would have thought of her at all with respect to the marriage of Henry and Anne or Elizabeth’s birth, and I think it unlikely that someone as self centred and egotistical as Henry would have been embarrassed by Mary’s presence at court.
Anne took over the guardianship of Henry Carey out of kindness, not to make Mary ‘tow the line’. The thought that Henry Carey could have been named heir if Anne failed to have a son stems solely from Gregory, which exemplifies my concerns with historical fiction.
What makes you think that Mary’s supposed illtreatment got worse after Elizabeth’s birth? Less than a year later she had married Stafford, and was bannished for doing so. No one was trying to use Mary in a game of chess. She had been a widow for six years when she married Stafford and no one had tried to marry her off to the highest bidder.
As for marrying Mary off to a protestant Prince? Mary wasn’t royal. She was of no political importance whatsoever.
1:30 am
November 18, 2010
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Sharon said
Debbie Sue said
If Mary was dismissed by her family because of Henry’s discomfort, he sure didn’t mind considering using his relationship with her when trying to dissolve his marriage to sister Anne.
No he didn’t, did he? He was a hypocrite of the highest degree. He didn’t want people around him if they upset him, but later when he needed to use them for his own purposes, he had no qualms. Henry felt nothing for Mary by this time. Quite the opposite. She was an embarrassment to him.
He had to ask for dispensation to marry Anne due to his affair with Mary. Then when he wants to be rid of Anne he uses Mary as his excuse to get out of the marriage. Of course, he didn’t mind using Mary to get out of his marriage to Anne. He would have used anyone to accomplish his goal.
He’d already made sure that he couldn’t use the Percy pre-contract since Henry Percy had to deny that when his wife tried to get an annulment . To allow himself to annul his marriage to Anne but allow the Northumberland marriage to continue on the same grounds was too much even for Henry’s flexible concience.
It's always bunnies.
1:57 am
October 28, 2011
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Conveniently my copy of The Boleyns by David Loades has arrived. I read the first few chapters last night and took some notes for you Bo. Loades made an interesting comment on Mary not conceiving for anywhere between three to five years after her affair with Henry started (possibly 1520, probably 1522-1525) and that she may have been using contraception of some sort. But back to her financial situation and such
-Carey dies in 1528
-Wardship of Henry Carey passes to Anne in 1529
Louise do you think she did this out of kindness? Seeing as Henry inherited all of his fathers wealth and as guardian, Anne was entitled to the profits I’m not sure it was all that kind. I’m sure as a widow Mary could have used the money. There is no mention apparently of Anne “sharing” any of the money with Mary but of course she may well have done.
-Mary secures an annual pension of 100 pounds in 1531.
Why did it take three years to secure a widow’s pension, especially as she would have had no income from her husbands estate as it had been given to Anne?
-Mary falls pregnant and marries Stafford in 1534, resulting in her banishment from court and cancellation of her annual pension.
Loades makes a really interesting point here which I had forgotten about. Both Anne and Mary were pregnant at this point and Mary had to leave court to attend her own pregnancy instead of being there for Anne. He points out that if Mary had some knowledge of contraception then perhaps Anne viewed her being pregnant at that point as a statement of some sort. Funnily enough this spin was used in TOBG, it’s interesting to see a historian mention it.
-After Anne’s attainder wardship passes back to the crown and is then re-granted to Mary
-In 1537 the Prior of Tynemouth writes to Cromwell begging him to cancel Mary’s annuity of 100 marks which she received for obtaining the preferment of his predecessor. Cromwell refuses the request
I think that’s the pension I mentioned earlier Boleyn, which Weir attributed to perhaps being money to look after Catherine. Mary went on to inherit most of her father’s lands between 1539 and 1542.
-In 1543 after Mary’s death the wardship of Henry and Catherine Carey reverted to the crown
Catherine would have already been at court at this point, and Henry Carey was sent to court. Catherine would have been receiving a wage, and I think this is where Henry VIII would have been pitching in for Henry’s education. That’s probably what i read in the Julia Fox the other day and couldn’t find it again.
On a different note, Loades has Henry as being born before Catherine, I thought Catherine was older? Did I get it wrong?
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8:08 am
December 5, 2009
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Yes I do think it was a kindness. It was not unique for a more wealthy and better placed person to be given guardianship of a child. George Boleyn had the guardianship of Edward Stafford. It was done to protect the child’s interests.
I’m uncertain what independent wealth Carey had for Henry to inherit. As I said above if Carey’s income stemed from revenues from properties granted to him by the King then those revenues died with him because the properties would have passed back to the throne on his death. Henry, in reply to a letter from Anne asking him to help Mary, put the onus to do so on Thomas Boleyn and indicated that Mary was pretty much destitute following Carey’s death. But whatever independent wealth Carey may have had, Henry VIII clearly felt Mary was unsuitable to manage the monies when he gave guardianship of Henry to Anne a year later. I think it was granted to Anne, not so much to manage Carey’s monies, but to ensure Henry Carey’s care and education were met properly.
Anne ensured Mary obtained a proper pension (£200, although when I checked it was actually £100). It may have taken time primarily because Henry wasn’t keen to establish any financial assistance to his former mistress and her children. Anne also paid for Henry’s education. To suggest Anne did it out of greed or that she did it so that Henry would be heir in the event that Anne failed to have a son is something I find hard to accept when you consider the charitable side to Anne’s personality. It suggests she really was the demon Gregory portrays.
Olga, I’ve read the Loades book. He gets a number of dates muddled, and makes some odd comments. He suggests George was estranged from his father because George was a reformist and his views were not shared by Thomas. I found that really bizarre.
2:02 pm
October 28, 2011
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Yes apparently he had some land granted to him by Henry, and I also thought it would have passed to his son and not reverted back to the crown. Sorry I really don’t know how it worked back then regarding property and inheritance.
I don’t think for a moment that Anne would have become his guardian to use the money off his estates, but I still find it very odd. Also those decisions lay with Henry on the end. I still find it strange they couldn’t manage to arrange a pension for Anne’s sister for three years when the rest of the family was well in favour with Henry. In fact I find it very strange indeed, the more I read about Mary the more baffled I become.
Why was Mary so out of favour with Henry? Or was that only when Mary was widowed and Anne was still alive? Her place in life seems to have improved a few years after Anne’s death, Stafford getting another place at court and her daughter also getting a place at court.
2:05 pm
January 3, 2012
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Louise I did say my theory was off the latch..
The Boleyn’s changed the face of history forever, without them we would still be stuck in the middle ages..
Anne has a place in my heart, she was a remarkable woman and well ahead of her time.. A woman who told an egotistical maniac that she wasn’t going to be another notch on his bedpost, and sacrificed her life to make sure Elizabeth would rule..That sacrifice helped to build the world today as we know it. Anne’s influence and legacy to the world still has meaning today..
George well what’s to say, the picture in my head of George is one of a intelligent diplomatic man who was fun to be around, and made every problem you had go away…
Mary well we know so little about her it’s difficult to come to a conclusion about her. I rather think that she messed up but it all came out in the wash with her..
Put Simply I LOVE THE BOLEYN’S
Olga, Yeah that was the pension I was referring to in one of my posts..
I was under the impression that Henry Junior was the eldest, but as to their paternity we can never be sure to who fathered them unless we can carry out a DNA test.. Looking at the excepted pictures of both Henry Junior and Catherine Junior, apart from Henry Junior’s Red hair I see very little resemblance of the King in either of them. Henry Junior has certainly got the Boleyn eyes. But again Painters can be very poetic with their brushes as we know where the portrait of AOC was concerned.
If either of them were fathered by Henry we should be thankful that neither of them turned out like him…
Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
2:06 pm
October 28, 2011
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Oh and thanks Louise, I’m not sure about this book by Loades. I’ll see how I go, usually a mistake turns me off, especially as I know so little I really shouldn’t be able to pick out mistakes. I’m flipping between that and Josephine Wilkinson’s book on Mary Boleyn at the moment
4:11 pm
May 7, 2010
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When Will died Mary lost the income he had provided but she still had her annuity from Tynemouth for helping a chaplain (?) get the living there, it was something like the equivalent of £10K today (I can’t remember the amount then), so she was not penniless and until Anne took the wardship of Henry she still had the rents from the Essex manors belonging to Will.
It was pretty normal back then for the wardship of children to be handed over to someone who could benefit them as they got older so I don’t think Anne taking the wardship of Henry is particularly ominous. He was given an education etc which had to be a good thing.
The pension she eventually received would have been a help on top of the annuity and if she was living at a Boleyn home she had a roof over her head, and her little girl’s.
I don’t think she was poverty stricken.
Nobody seems to have put themselves out to find her a new husband but is it not possible that she did not want to remarry and made her feelings plain? The Boleyns were up and coming but at the same time they were not particularly well liked – it is possible that not many would fancy being the second husband of Mary. I lean towards her knowing she was not likely to be happily married if she entered into a ‘business’ type marriage and so refused any suggestions or offers for a few years. This would have annoyed the family perhaps that she was not willing to be a ‘sacrifice’ of sorts. That is not to say she didn’t want (erhm…) male companionship and so she ended up pregnant and it became necessary to give up the ‘fun’ side of things and settle down again. She married Stafford who was kind to her and unlikely to use her – as a Boleyn – in furthering himself or having her always seeking honours for him. He was I feel a plain man who offered her a plain and settled life.
George was well loved at court and respected, a go getter. Anne had gone as high as anyone could have hoped but Mary didn’t seem to have that family trait of getting as much as possible and never think on peace of mind or basic happiness. I think being happy and/or comfortable was important to her. Stafford’s attraction to her may well have been his distance from all that she found uncomfortable.
I honestly think Mary probably was not that happy at court and Anne knew it. Anne also didn’t want a miserable face around her as she tried to keep the ‘Boleyn court’ sunny and pleasant, so though it comes down that Mary was banished I think it quite possible that it was all a bit of a mutual thing.
So anyway as far as Stafford is concerned I think he was probably kind to her, listened to her, gave credence to her opinions and made her feel comfortable in her own skin and with her own thoughts. I don’t know that they were ‘in lurve’ really but I think they fitted well together and the marriage was an escape for her from a pretty miserable existence and a practical thing for him (as it is for most men).
Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60
